Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 1 Jul 90 15:44:58 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 1 Jul 90 15:41:47 EDT Received: from EDDIE.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA17189; Sun, 1 Jul 90 15:20:22 EDT Received: by EDDIE.MIT.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA18056; Sun, 1 Jul 90 14:20:12 EST Date: Sun, 1 Jul 90 14:20:12 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom Message-Id: <9007011920.AA18056@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: Test Date: Sun, 1 Jul 90 14:20:12 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: Test Please hit 'd' now... ---Rob Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 1 Jul 90 18:36:29 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 1 Jul 90 18:29:34 EDT Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA19778; Sun, 1 Jul 90 18:00:44 EDT Received: from EDDIE.MIT.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa17655; 30 Jun 90 21:52 EDT Received: by EDDIE.MIT.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA18143; Sat, 30 Jun 90 20:52:31 EST Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 20:52:31 EST From: "Robert E. Seastrom" Message-Id: <9007010152.AA18143@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> To: convex!datri@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Cc: pdp8-lovers@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: "Anthony A. Datri"'s message of Fri, 22 Jun 90 23:18:36 CDT <9006230418.AA20925@concave> Subject: free to first response Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 20:52:31 EST From: "Robert E. Seastrom" To: convex!datri@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu Cc: pdp8-lovers@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: "Anthony A. Datri"'s message of Fri, 22 Jun 90 23:18:36 CDT <9006230418.AA20925@concave> Subject: free to first response From: "Anthony A. Datri" decsystem10 operationg system command manual (5.07 and 6.01) only if you can convince me that you're actually running one decsystem10 fortran programmer's manual (fortran-10, v5) I'd be interested in the DEC-10 stuff; I'm not running one *yet*, but that's only because the tapes haven't come from Sweden yet. Would a copy of my Tops-10 license agreement suit you? ---Rob Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Mon, 2 Jul 90 00:54:30 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Mon, 2 Jul 90 00:50:25 EDT Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA23613; Mon, 2 Jul 90 00:19:36 EDT Received: from psi.Berkeley.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa17758; 1 Jul 90 1:42 EDT Received: from nu.berkeley.edu by psi.berkeley.edu (4.0/1.30) id AA02096; Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT From: Lane Message-Id: <9007010542.AA02096@psi.berkeley.edu> To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: subscribe Date: Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT From: Lane To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: subscribe I would like to subscribe to your group. Address: nathan@psi.berkeley.edu -or, if that's unreachable- nlane@garnet.berkeley.edu From nathan@psi.berkeley.edu Tue Jul 3 21:13:45 1990 Return-Path: Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA17750; Tue, 3 Jul 90 21:13:39 EDT Received: from psi.berkeley.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA27520; Tue, 3 Jul 90 20:40:29 EDT Received: from iota.berkeley.edu by psi.berkeley.edu (4.0/1.30) id AA05473; Tue, 3 Jul 90 12:37:49 PDT Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 12:37:49 PDT From: nathan@psi.berkeley.edu ( Lane) Message-Id: <9007031937.AA05473@psi.berkeley.edu> To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: subscribe I would like to subscribe to your mailing list. mail address: nathan@psi.berkeley.edu --or--(if unreachable) nlane@garnet.berkeley.edu Thank you. Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Tue, 3 Jul 90 23:37:09 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Tue, 3 Jul 90 23:35:13 EDT Received: from EDDIE.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA28790; Tue, 3 Jul 90 23:19:36 EDT Received: by EDDIE.MIT.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA22902; Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:19:19 EST Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:19:19 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom Message-Id: <9007040319.AA22902@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: [lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List] Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:19:19 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: [lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List] We are pleased to have Charles Lasner on the PDP8-Lovers mailing list. I believe he wrote part or most of {P|O}S/8. He can probably tell you more. Return-Path: Date: Wed, 27 Jun 90 11:00:13 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: rs@ai.mit.edu (Robert E. Seastrom) Subject: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 25 Jun 90 10:47:44 EDT This is a test reply to e-mail that finally got to me! Please also reply to me again to prove the loop is closed. As insurance, please also reply to me with all things the same as you get here (cunixf) only with watsun substituted for cunixf, as that's where I moreso live these days. I get dual mail, not one forwarded to the other... Please tell me what are useful topics you want on this forum, as I only have a copy of a file (pdp8-lovers-archive) which is from Feb 1989. I also can heavily participate in the archiving of files, which I would both collect and make available to all, etc. I have mucho storage capabilities on my -8, so, without undue bragging, let me tell you what is relevantly available for file conversion and storage purposes: PDP-8/e with 32k 4 TU56/TC08 drives 2 RK05/RK8E drives 2 RX01 compatible (DSD-210 which can actually FORMAT the floppies!) CIS hardware breakpoint module (fetch/exec stop) PT8E papertape reader/punch network interface (homemade interprocessor buffer - high-speed) to LINC-8 with 4k and dual LINCtape drives. Server software allows the PDP-8/e to support LINCtape drives, so I can read/write standard OS/12, etc. LINCtapes using home-grown handlers that match the LINC-8 server. The LINC-8 can also format -12 tapes, but you have to take down the server... CESI SCSI bus intelligent host adapter with 2 1.2 mbyte floppies, 80 mbyte winchester, qic-02 tape cartridge backup (40 mbytes), and SyQuest 555 removable high-speed cartridge hard disk drive 44 mbyte per cartridge. In case you are not familiar with the SyQuest, I just want to point out that this really is the best thing since sliced bread... It is a 25 ms 2-head 5-1/4" half-height drive 5 volts only. The cartrdiges have a two-tiered approach to bad-block mapping that yields a logical error-free device of length 44.1 mbyte always. You run utilities (I wrote) on the cartridge to lock out the bad blocks and then just use it as a zero-defects device with handlers I wrote for the prevailing -8 systems and just pretend its another fast hard disk, only it can be removed in 3 seconds and spun up again in 5 seconds if necessary. You can even leave it in the drive permanently if you want, since it auto-yanks the heads on a power failure! All of the disk devices (DECtape, LINCtape through the server, RK, RX, 1.2 Mbyte floppy, 80 meg winchester, Syquest 555) are bootable. Only the DECtape and RK and RX are DEC "standard", but OS/8 is user-configurable for anything, and P?S/8 (my system, not DEC's) supports all of them as well. I also have a DECMATE II with MS-DOS and also a VICTOR 9000 and several PCs which also have the SyQuest 555s. Of course, I have KERMIT running EVERYWHERE to transfer files between all the machines. In the winter, my oil bills drop and my electric bill rises when I turn everything on at once! My building is blessed with 3-phase power, so I would not rule out a PDP-10 in the future... (Long live the true ZORK!) cjl (lasner@cunixf, lasner@watsun) Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Tue, 3 Jul 90 23:37:14 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Tue, 3 Jul 90 23:35:04 EDT Received: from EDDIE.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA28797; Tue, 3 Jul 90 23:20:22 EDT Received: by EDDIE.MIT.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA22914; Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:20:03 EST Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:20:03 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom Message-Id: <9007040320.AA22914@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: [lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List] Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:20:03 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: [lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List] Return-Path: Date: Wed, 27 Jun 90 19:03:49 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: Robert E. Seastrom Subject: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Jun 90 12:03:28 EST Hope you get this... Are you familiar with KERMIT-12; if you are that will cut through a lot... The volume of stuff is not high compared to some other subject matter, but how about contacting some of those sites that are still looking for a purpose that are found in those ftp.sites files around the net? I found one which has nothing but .gif files 1 month after they claimed to be purposeless... I am still very active in the 12-bit world, and I have very interested friends, only one of which is on the net: mjhyde@sunrise.acs.syr.edu (or is it sunrise.syr.acs.edu?) Mark Hyde of Syracuse University and DECUS. He is attempting to get DEC to cough it all up, and I have been looking for certain things for years which I can use in modified form, especially since I may be one of the last people actively doing the modifying! My friends were of course the -8 and -12 support group, but mostly have left DEC for less boring pastures (sometimes at less $money!). I have many files, and some ideas on how to get them to the net and off of it on the -8's themselves. (Again, see K12mit release files here in ~kermit/d/k12*.* .) The SyQuest is REALLY great. The drives have just been "liberated" from Hamilton-Avnet's exclusive distributorship by SyQuest cancelling their contract, so the street price may now be lower than the list price. The price may also drop, since they announced a 3.5" version! That tiny beast is still vaporware probably 'til October, but they are working on it... The SQ555 lists for $995 quantity one and the cartridges are $115 each quantity one. Ask someone like Data Storage Marketing in Colorado for a newer price (hopefully better). I would guess that the 3.5" cousin will be $60 a cartridge and list for $500 and all else will be equal, except they tell me that the seek time is BETTER for the little one! There is also a vicious rumor that a replacement 5-1/4" beast will appear that will hold 100 MEGS! The real problem is that the only PDP-8 standard way to use these things is with CESI MDC8 intelligent SCSI host adapters. Gary Wagner wants way too much for them, listing them for something like $1250 each quantity one. I got mine from a client of mine who is an OEM customer of CESI and they bought over 500 of them for something like $600 each several years ago. The guy has to come down eventually, but... My software makes the drives look like a succession of partitions each of which is a maximal OS/8 or P?S/8 device. You assemble the handler for which hunk(s) of disk you want to talk to. For example, you get RDA0-7 on the first 16 Megs and RDB0-7 on the next 16 MEGS, etc. My winchester disk looks like WNA0-7, WNB0-7, WNC0-7, etc. You really have to run BUILD a whole lot to get around! BTW, I also have the SAME drive on my PC using an OMTI 412 host adapter (non-intelligent) using a custom rom my friend and I whipped up. The drive is in an "external" case and moves with the cable. Our format is universal and is designed to work under MENU-8 (my proprietary operating system operating system loader, sort of like DECmate Master Menu), or with BIOS ROM support, make the device be liked by MS-DOS! Neat? Of course, you have to read your own stuff on the drive raw, but they do like each other... I use it to transfer raw data between PCs and -8s for laboratory purposes at one of my clients' lab. If you are REAL CRAZY, you could write a primitive driver and slow read/write handler for OS/8 by sticking into field 7 and lower the core size as was done by Mark Hyde so OS/8 could read/write DECtapes on the PDP-12, so the code size wouldn't be a problem, and then use the dr-8e digital i/o board with a strange connectorto talk SCSI. It's all open-collector bus and asynchronous, etc., and I believe there is enough bits on the DR-8/E to do it right without building hardware other than the funny cable, but it would be much slower than the DMA of the MDC8, not to mention REAL hard to boot thus requiring another device to run from first. I have built machines with only CESI MDC8 and its floppies and winchester as the only boot device and they get real small by any standards; try putting a small external box and an -8/m box together with the MDC8 and an -8/a processor in the box, and you'll see that this ain't much different in total size than a PC! I would like to put an omnibus into a tower case. Any suggestions on how to get the mechanicals done and any power supply problems overcome? Then I would have a real PC-8! I wuld also like to attract the attention of the likes of Bernie Eiben and company to this forum, so we can get from DEC the lost DECmate stuff so I can straighten out that mess. I will eventually figure it all out even if I have to disassemble the boot roms and the slushware, but wouldn't it be more productive if they just gave it to us? A sympathetic voice still in DEC (alas powerless!) is Roland Lussier, and he is net-reachable, but I have to find his net address, (not handy). cjl (still mumbling octal after all these years: *30 ; 6743; 5031;LA 30,clear,continue, boot) Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sat, 7 Jul 90 19:59:29 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sat, 7 Jul 90 19:56:59 EDT Received: from EDDIE.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA06867; Sat, 7 Jul 90 19:48:03 EDT Received: by EDDIE.MIT.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA02672; Sat, 7 Jul 90 18:47:51 EST Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 18:47:51 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom Message-Id: <9007072347.AA02672@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: [lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu: I will not take credit/blame Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 18:47:51 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: [lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu: I will not take credit/blame where undue...] Return-Path: Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 16:51:28 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: Robert E. Seastrom Subject: Re: [lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu: Re: Welcome to the PDP8-Lovers Mailing List] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 3 Jul 90 22:19:19 EST I wil not take credit/blame where undue. I am part of the Brooklyn Poly DEC Dynasty (that's not a name, merely a description; there are other more "official" names). This group is responsible for (at least) the following PDP-8-related projects: MS-8 (aka R-L monitor system) P?S/8 (descendent of above) Poly Basic (yeh, the Poly is Brooklyn Poly as in EduSystem 30 and 15) Poly Snobol String Language-8 Dibol (ultimately COS's of various descriptions, but not recently) PS/8, later OS/8, 12, 78, 278, etc. Toy (later known as SRT-8 and then renamed RTS-8) My addled brain may have caused a few to slip by, but... My main project is P?S/8, the main "alternate operating system" for the PDP-8; even OS/8 can't make the following claim: P?S/8 will run on any suitably configured PDP-8/12. If the media chosen is RX01 single-density, THAT DISKETTE will bootstrap on ANY of the following machines: PDP-8 or LINC-8 (with DW8E-N) PDP-8/I with DW8E (N or P as necessary; yes there are positive buss 8/i's!) PDP-8/L (with DW8E-P) PDP-12 (with DW8E-P) PDP-8/E,F,M,A VT-78 VT-278 (DECmate (I)) PC-278 (DECmate II) with RX78 option InterSil Intercept with DSD-210 option PCM-12 with DSD-210 option Any other homebrew truly compatible with RX01 machines (some 6100's no doubt) Get it straight, I don't mean that a "version" of the system runs on any of the above (theoretically, some member or members of the OS/8 family actually run on the above), I mean that the ACTUAL FLOPPY IN YOUR HAND can boot on any of these. My point is that the various versions of OS/8 have "burned their bridges behind them" and only some releases work on some machines, and they have different quirks. This ultimately was caused by the loss of the Poly people in DEC, and creeping into the code such things as BSW instead of (RTL;RTL;RTL or RTR;RTR;RTR as necessary) by those ill-skilled in the art of sticking to straight generic PDP-8 code (which is really no great feat: No IAC/ROTATE combinations, no BSW, no MQ-related instructions, etc.). Some people were hired without instructions in this area, and they then just phased-out "pre-omnibus machines", coincidentally just after promoting the DW8E so the RK-8/F (RK-8/E with a few add/deletes) could work on the older machines. (Sell the hardware then obsolete the software; can someone give us the KA/KI-10 equivalent story?) Does anyone know the littany of PAL10? I haven't used it in years (no TOPS-10 or -20 systems available!) and I would like to discuss it's shortcomings, quirks and features. A programmer's challenge: Using any "standard" language available somewhere on some non-IBM-mainframe (no 360's or descendants, please!) write the minimum program that, when executed, yields a printout of the source program itself. (Note, a (minimal?) solution to this problem has been implemented in FORTRAN) (I have a shorter solution that runs on the PDP-8.) Charles Lasner (cjl) lasner@cunixf or lasner@watsun PS: The FORTRAN solution is not accomplished in one line. Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:53:37 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:47:22 EDT Received: from cunixf.cc.columbia.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA07091; Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:38:58 EDT Received: by cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA05432; Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:17 EDT Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:16 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: testing the return path Message-Id: Date: Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:16 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: testing the return path Did this get through are sacred mail program at cunixf? RSVP cjl Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:19:59 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:13:27 EDT Received: from EDDIE.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA12501; Sun, 8 Jul 90 10:58:58 EDT Received: by EDDIE.MIT.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA00644; Sun, 8 Jul 90 09:58:40 EST Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 09:58:40 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom Message-Id: <9007081458.AA00644@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> To: lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Charles Lasner's message of Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:16 EDT Subject: testing the return path Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 09:58:40 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom To: lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Charles Lasner's message of Sat, 7 Jul 90 20:39:16 EDT Subject: testing the return path From: Charles Lasner Did this get through are sacred mail program at cunixf? yup Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:20:05 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:16:54 EDT Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA12520; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:04:26 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa28482; 8 Jul 90 11:04 EDT Received: from rice-chex (rice-chex.ai.mit.edu) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA12516; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:04:01 EDT From: "Robert E. Seastrom" Received: by rice-chex (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA02019; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:03:57 EDT Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:03:57 EDT Message-Id: <9007081503.AA02019@rice-chex> To: nathan@psi.berkeley.edu Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Lane's message of Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT <9007010542.AA02096@psi.berkeley.edu> Subject: subscribe From: "Robert E. Seastrom" Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:03:57 EDT To: nathan@psi.berkeley.edu Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Lane's message of Sat, 30 Jun 90 22:42:22 PDT <9007010542.AA02096@psi.berkeley.edu> Subject: subscribe *** Welcome to the PDP8-LOVERS mailing list! *** This mailing list exists in order to facilitate communication and cooperation between owners of vintage DEC computers, specifically, but not limited to, the PDP-8 series of minicomputers. Discussions of all manner of hardware, software, programming techniques are invited. People who don't own vintage DEC hardware, but have an interest in it (used to hack on them, designed them, whatever...) are encouraged to join, as well as people who use PDP-8 computers on a regular basis. We are currently working on finding a site to host archives of PDP-8 software and make them FTP-able. Postings: Mail postings to PDP8-LOVERS@AI.MIT.EDU (note new address!) Problems/Changes: Mail to PDP8-LOVERS-REQUEST@AI.MIT.EDU Thank you for your interest in PDP8-LOVERS! Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:24:16 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:20:51 EDT Received: from EDDIE.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA12533; Sun, 8 Jul 90 11:09:17 EDT Received: by EDDIE.MIT.EDU (5.61/25-eef) id AA00901; Sun, 8 Jul 90 10:09:03 EST Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 10:09:03 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom Message-Id: <9007081509.AA00901@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: another test... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 90 10:09:03 EST From: Robert E. Seastrom To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: another test... With luck, I have now gotten rid of all addresses that were bouncing mail. ---Rob Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 21:06:04 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.32.80]) by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sun, 8 Jul 90 21:03:59 EDT Received: from sunic.sunet.se by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA16651; Sun, 8 Jul 90 20:24:47 EDT Received: from AIDA.CSD.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (5.61+IDA/KTH/LTH/1.145) id AAsunic24322; Mon, 9 Jul 90 02:24:32 +0200 Received: from CARMEN.DOCS.UU.SE by AIDA.CSD.UU.SE with TCP; Mon 9 Jul 90 02:20:38 Date: Mon 9 Jul 90 02:24:05 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: testing the return path To: lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu, D89.JOHNNY-BILLQUIST@carmen.docs.uu.se In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <900709022405.14.D89.JOHNNY-BILLQUIST@CARMEN.DOCS.UU.SE> Date: Mon 9 Jul 90 02:24:05 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: testing the return path To: lasner@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu, D89.JOHNNY-BILLQUIST@carmen.docs.uu.se In-Reply-To: Yep, the message went through, if you didn't already know. Johnny Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU; Sat, 14 Jul 90 20:27:12 EDT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by ELI.CS.YALE.EDU; Sat, 14 Jul 90 20:16:26 EDT Received: from sunic.sunet.se ([192.36.125.2]) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA00195; Sat, 14 Jul 90 19:31:46 EDT Received: from AIDA.CSD.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (5.61+IDA/KTH/LTH/1.145) id AAsunic19009; Sat, 14 Jul 90 19:04:48 +0200 Received: from CARMEN.DOCS.UU.SE by AIDA.CSD.UU.SE with TCP; Sat 14 Jul 90 19:00:14 Date: Sat 14 Jul 90 19:03:21 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: From C. Lasner To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Message-Id: <900714190321.11.D89.JOHNNY-BILLQUIST@CARMEN.DOCS.UU.SE> Date: Sat 14 Jul 90 19:03:21 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: From C. Lasner To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu The following was recieved from Charles Lasner. I didn't edit any of it, since I don't see what should be left out, and what should be left in, so here is all of it. (I wasn't born as an editor, sorry.) By the way, this was a side track of a discussion between him an me, so "I" is Lasner, and "you" is myself (Johnny). ------------------------------------------------------------ You can do a whole lot of really good stuff with SCSI. I have designed a "master" system for the -8 called MENU-8. It is designed to deal with the problems of a partitionable large disk which could be removable. The SCSI buss on my 8/E has an 80 Meg fixed disk and a 45 Meg removable cartridge disk that resembles a miniature RK05. It even SOUNDS like an RK05 when you hit the big hub on the bottom with the hard sector marks! It's scary, but we even have -8's in tower cases, almost like pc's. I wrote a system for multiple users about 9 years ago; it actively supported 40 tasks; each was concerned with moving some files either into or out of a common data base on an RK05. This is yet another stand-alone operating system complete with utilities. I ran out of room in 32k! The directory is a sort-ordered balanced binary tree to minimize lookup time on thousands of relatively petty files for a news wire system. All I/O is queued, with disk I/O supporting 8-level priority, system-wide 8-level message sending priority, etc. There is a master scheduler and multi-user serially reentrant/reusable code. The entire system needed to maintain merely an 8-level stack for each user, which is swapped merely by maintaining an index register (000017). Job variables consisted of locations 000020-000077, so you move the job's variables to/from 000017-000077 and then restart them. No time slicing exists, so each task "hogs" the machine until it can't continue, so it exits to the scheduler with the appropriate resource wait bit set. All disk buffers are pooled, and all directory elements and message queue elements are sharable if compatible protection bits are presented. Thus multiple jobs could process the same file in "read-only" mode, or if one job was writing the data with read allowed, or updating could be done with read denied until status changed to queued for writing, etc. Much of these ideas come from TOPS-10, which is a far better source of good design ideas... I will pull rank on you here: I have loved the PDP-8 since 1968; The particular machine I started on was the one that Richard Lary wore out the front panel switches on; we replaced them. I also rewired the lamp panel leads which tended to break off, and replaced NUMEROUS of the soldered-in bulbs. I made this machine work after DEC said it was too expensive; they doubted it could ever work again. This machine didn't work because of obscure problems with shorted isolation diodes in the lamp driver lead runs. The capacitive coupling of the wires made the machine randomly fail. Also the diodes were prone to the paint being scratched off of the glass; these diodes are photo-sensitive and become REAL leaky in moderate to strong light, so the machine originally only worked in darkness! All of the machines we work on became commercially popular ultimately because of Richard Lary, and the software ideas he wrote or spawned. They were all developed on this machine: 4k, ONE DECtape drive, teletype, d-a convertor, a-d convertor, oscilloscope,PT08 and extra teletype (which "wandered" around and had to be retrieved periodically), home-made interface to IBM 360 2701 device, home-made music register, EAE (PDP-8 style, not 8/I or E!). I made it work again after they all gave up on it. TLC is not an -8 instruction, but it is a necessity! BTW, please edit the appropriate history part of this letter, and post it back to PDP8-LOVERS, thanx cjl