Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 11:16:37 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 11:16:30 -0500 Received: from mail.uunet.ca (uunet.ca) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA04475; Wed, 1 Apr 92 10:53:41 EST Received: from isgtec by mail.uunet.ca with UUCP id <53327>; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 10:53:26 -0500 Received: by isgtec.isgtec.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.3) id ; Wed, 1 Apr 92 08:59 EST Received: by hobbes.isgtec.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.20) id ; Wed, 1 Apr 92 08:59 EST Message-Id: From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w? To: chapman@cs.cornell.edu (Richard Chapman) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 08:59:09 -0500 Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: <9203301951.AA23522@elli.cs.cornell.edu>; from "Richard Chapman" at Mar 30, 92 2:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w? To: chapman@cs.cornell.edu (Richard Chapman) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 08:59:09 -0500 Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: <9203301951.AA23522@elli.cs.cornell.edu>; from "Richard Chapman" at Mar 30, 92 2:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Richard Chapman writes: > I have the RIM loader. Can someone send me a file with the BIN loader > in RIM format (in any format you like [...] I can send you the BIN loader as a uuencoded PKZIP'ed file (or compress'ed if you prefer). But this brings up a point that I haven't seen discussed here: what is the copyright status of ancient, but originally DEC-owned (like BIN) PDP-8 s/w? Can I legally post (or receive from a friend) FOCAL-8 and BASIC-8? What about EDIT or the assembler? Are they so old now that they've become like Charley Chaplin movies and fallen into the public domain? I have a small handful of such programs that I'd gladly share with needy 8'ers but for this fear that the DEC police might descend on me! > 1) What about a cross-assembler I can run on my unix workstation or > PC? (any cross-compilers out there?). Neil Gray's PDP-8 simulator package contains a cross assembler. Minus a couple of bugs and hard-coded paths, it works fine on several machines I've compiled it on. I can supply my diffs (or maybe the whole asm source?) to interested parties. > Maybe even patch gcc itself to output pdp-8 code Oh, oh; don't let CL hear you say this! :-) -- "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR" bmw@isgtec.com [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ] Bruce Walker Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 12:15:29 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 12:15:22 -0500 Received: from rpi.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA05489; Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:41:33 EST Received: from MTS.RPI.EDU by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB31); id AA25311; Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:42:14 EST for PDP8-LOVERS@AI.MIT.EDU Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:41:02 EST From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Message-Id: <2797646@MTS.RPI.EDU> Subject: DEC copyrights Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:41:02 EST From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: DEC copyrights For what it's worth, DEC's official policy on software -documentation- is that if DEC isn't selling it any more, then it's OK to copy it. I believe it says so in the preface to the Documentation Product Directory or whatever it's called, anyway a DECdirect person told me so on the phone too. Obviously this doesn't mention the software itself, but maybe it's a good clue as to whether they care enough to sue you. Note that the diagnostics are listed in the Digital Assisted Services price list to this day, so those are probably off limits, although they used to come free with the system (right?). Re: C for the PDP-8 -- WHY would someone want to use a language whose whole purpose is to hide the PDP-8 from you, just use some unix box for that! John_Wilson@MTS.RPI.EDU Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 12:22:09 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 12:22:02 -0500 Received: from convex.convex.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA05697; Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:50:26 EST Received: from lovecraft.convex.com by convex.convex.com (5.64/1.35) id AA16303; Wed, 1 Apr 92 10:50:18 -0600 Received: by lovecraft.convex.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02131; Wed, 1 Apr 92 10:50:16 CST Received: from Messages.7.15.N.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.lovecraft.convex.com.sun4.41 via MS.5.6.lovecraft.convex.com.sun4_41; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 10:50:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 10:50:15 -0600 (CST) From: "Anthony A. Datri" To: chapman@cs.cornell.edu (Richard Chapman) Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 10:50:15 -0600 (CST) From: "Anthony A. Datri" To: chapman@cs.cornell.edu (Richard Chapman) Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: References: >I have a small handful of such programs that I'd gladly share with >needy 8'ers but for this fear that the DEC police might descend on me! DEC stopped existing when the 11/780 came out; they mutated into Digital then. They're notorious for having short memories. Me: "I've got a GIGI". DEC: "Who makes that?" I suspect that most of DEC has never even heard of the 8. ======================================================8--< Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 13:05:22 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 13:05:04 -0500 Received: from watsun.cc.columbia.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA06595; Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:31:09 EST Received: by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA22977; Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:31:05 EST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:31:03 EST From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Cc: bmw@isgtec.com Subject: Response to bmw (Bruce M. Walker) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:31:03 EST From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Cc: bmw@isgtec.com Subject: Response to bmw (Bruce M. Walker) Re: Older DEC programs, etc. RIM never gets sent because you toggle it in by hand to in turn get other things in, so there's no issue. In fact, if you write a document on the history of computers, you can include a nice, neat, well-commented DEC-compatible RIM loader that just happens to be binary-compatible with DEC's code, and call it your own, perhaps just giving copyright notice to DEC within the document. There is also an alternative that avoids the issue entirely: Don't even use RIM, which is an inefficient, albeit standard format. There is a user program called the HELP loader, which was distributed by DECUS, which in turn was used to load in both the BIN and RIM loaders in HELP format. DEC didn't seem to mind even then that RIM and also BIN straight from their paper tapes transformed to this alternate encoding was being distributed through DECUS, so I think that they lose their copyright because of it. There is even a more efficient technique called the SLIM loader. It was described in DECUSCOPE quite a number of years ago, including the technique for punching SLIM tapes ala HELP. I don't think it was distributed, but I don't see a problem with it. As to BIN loaders themselves: DEC has three BIN loaders: a short-lived standard one that was replaced by the stable one, and a third called the "self-starting" binary loader. The self-starting loader has a bug in it in that whenever there is a field change, it causes the last word in the old field to be mistakenly loaded into the new field instead :-(. To ward this off, all newer diagnostics, etc, have superficial origin settings in them before a field setting, as well as after. All of these loaders are inefficient versions of what they are trying to accomplish. I have written an "ultimate" replacement for them, and it's a standard feature of P?S/8. Invoking the P?S/8 command: .BIN/P or .BIN/P/F gets the loader, and a system bootstrap into 07600-07777, including a standard RIM loader. The P?S/8 bootstrap occupies 07600-07642, RIM occupies 07756-07777, so BIN is the stuff in the middle. There is one feature removed from DEC's BIN which slightly helps make it shorter, which is that DEC's loader includes a dynamic choice of low-speed or high-speed loading by reading the console switches to determine the loading device. The P?S/8 version uses the /F switch to make BIN and RIM both high-speed or both low-speed if it's absent from the original command. The only "feature" lost is that you have to have a switch register to determine where to load from in case you are vacillating. Note that some machines lack a front panel, so it's possible to run without one this way. (8/M and 8/a systems use front panel options, not givens. In any case, when was the last time anyone changed their mind about the load device in the middle of a multiple load? :-)) So, the shorter P?S/8 version of the BIN loader minus the I/O switch is a better candidate for this purpose, and has no DEC copyright at all. Note that RIM has no options; DEC published two versions, a high-speed and low-speed RIM. (BTW, P?S/8 can also punch RIM and BIN tapes from binary files, or convert one to the other, etc.) By "the" assembler, I assume you mean either PAL III or paper-tape MACRO-8. Neither are acceptable for serious use as an assembler; just too many features missing. Also, the Neil Gray thing as an assembler is just a toy as well. The only "real" assemblers for the -8 run on OS/8 or P?S/8. (A close attempt is TOPS-10's PAL10 cross-assembler, but it also has a few, likely correctable, problems as well. See the Kermit-12 documentation for a detailed comparison of the three environments.) Most of these aren't suitable for paper-tape usage because they are heavily dependent on their environment, including pass-specific overlays, etc., and the fact that they create system-dependent binary files from system-dependent input files, etc. Focal-8 isn't really wanted by anyone, since it is a poor derivative work upon Focal, 1969. Focal, 1969 has many derivatives, some published by DEC, and some by others who distributed them to DECUS. I personally distributed MS/8 FOCAL, and there was at least FOCAL, 1973, and TAFT FOCAL. For OS/8 there is OMSI FOCAL later updated (but the sources held proprietary) as I believe U/W-FOCAL. The binary of that has made the rounds without complaint by the author even in its heyday. I currently support P?S/8 FOCAL, which is the most compatibile with the original, so the prevailing documentation on how to customize it is mostly accurate information. The work of many other people is salvaged this way, whereas the others have taken so many "liberties" with the source that most of the info doesn't apply any more. Except for certain "excised" areas taken for system interface, most of the listing many bought from DEC is still valid, so their innovations are still applicable. Focal-8 incorporates a minor fix that was first corrected in FOCAL-12, having to do with the nuances of one command. I incorporated the one-word change in a different way to prevent obsolescence of the original. The problem is that FOCAL-12 and Focal-8's method is to make the code one word longer. My soultion is to patch about 35 words to incorporate the same effective change in no extra space. Focal-8 has no other positive features, only negative ones: Removes the code that checks for machine type, and can only run on 8/e,f,m,a, yet doesn't take advantage of them. Later DEC sells separately an overlay file that allows it to run on the older machines as a subset of what FOCAL, 1969 just does as distributed. (The only thing wrong with FOCAL, 1969 as distributed is that the hack machine identification calls an 8/e-class machine an -8, because the tests pre-date the 8/e :-).) Why pay more for less in a more tedious form? :-) The other "feature" of Focal-8 is that it insidiously self-destructs if run on DCC-112 machines, which at the time was considered competition by DEC. One of the darker chapters of DEC history is that they bothered to sabatoge their own software to not run on competitor's products. Anyone looking at various OS/8 sources will see the curious edit history note referring to "removal of DCC check" which refers to when the programmers balked and insisted upon removing it. During this time period, DEC did various "legal" things that weren't very pretty :-). I sold a limited license to Intersil for the use of P?S/8 on the Intercept series of IM6100-based -8 compatibles. (This was before the VT-78.) Up until then, Intersil was buying copies of the paper-tape stuff and reselling it to their customers. DEC's legal department was actually considering legal action against Intersil, and later me as well, but fortunately they concluded, in convoluted legalese, that: 1) Since DEC made no claims that Intersil's machines were compatible, it didn't matter. Since they purchases copyrighted material, they could sell it to others, not copy it. Since there was no evidence of Intersil selling "illegal" copies, there was no problem. (Note that at the time, Intersil was guaranteeing the software would run on their machines, yet because DEC doesn't back this claim, it doesn't matter? The second point is clear regarding copyright, but what is the point of whose claim it is? Any would-be lawyers willing to render an opinion here?) 2) Intervention on my behalf was made by friends of mine who worked for DEC at the time, who explained to various managers, who in turn informed the lawyers, that a) Not all software for the -8 is created in-house by DEC. Sometimes it seems that way, but in reality, there are programmers in the real world who are actually not DEC's employees :-). b) The system in question was demoed to various managers and rejected for various reasons, so it wasn't purchased by DEC. Yes, I demoed P?S/8 to a DEC manager once. He rejected it because since it could run in only 4K, whereas OS/8 required 8K, support of it would "discourage memory sales". I guess this is a case of making a program too efficient :-) :-). DEC never bothered me, and Intersil made good on their royalty agreement, which was limited to their hardware use only, so I am still in control of P?S/8 today. As far as any OS/8 stuff is concerned, I think that since the DECUS submission of DM-101 and DM-111 of all of the sources they could scrape up, and more recently a binary copy of OS/78 V4, any copyright worries here are non-existant. I distribute PAL8 and CREF as part of the Kermit-12 package. Re the transmission of the paper-tape stuff: You still have to get the stuff to the -8, which is apparently a CPU only, so how does uuencoded PKZIP'Ed stuff get there? You still need a means to transmit it at the end, etc. As far as C-compiler output -8 code? Go right ahead. When you get -8 code that actually works without either assembly or logic error, and also is less than an order of magnitude longer than typical assembler, some of it might actually fit on a 32K machine, even though I can run my assembler version on a 4K machine. :-). A good start is to make the C-compiler output PDP-9 code, or it too "pristine" to run on the original unix machine? :-). (unix started on 18-bit machines, NOT the -11.) As someone else mentioned, the most error-free part of any program is the part you totally removed by making it more efficient :-). cjl Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 13:16:43 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 13:16:35 -0500 Received: from enet-gw.pa.dec.com by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA06896; Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:48:05 EST Received: by enet-gw.pa.dec.com; id AA08888; Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:48:02 -0800 Message-Id: <9204011748.AA08888@enet-gw.pa.dec.com> Received: from narfvx.enet; by decwrl.enet; Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:48:02 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:48:02 PST From: Windows 3.0: the Mac interface done in crayon... 01-Apr-1992 1248 To: asimov::decwrl::"datri@concave.convex.com"@ranger.enet.dec.com Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Apparently-To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:48:02 PST From: Windows 3.0: the Mac interface done in crayon... 01-Apr-1992 1248 To: asimov::decwrl::"datri@concave.convex.com"@ranger.enet.dec.com Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Apparently-To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? >I suspect that most of DEC has never even heard of the 8. Not quite true. Some of us still remember the 8 quite fondly. I first cut my teeth on a PDP-8/E running TSS/8 when I was in high school. It started me on the search for a school that used its big-brother OS, TOPS-10. From there I got into Digital and was with the TOPS-10 group until it was disbanded in 1990-91. Several former TOPS-10/20 hackers are also members of this list, I bet. The people who "forgot" the 8 most likely came up through the PDP-11 path and had most of their experience on machines with eight-bit multiple architectures (11, VAX, PCs) intead of six-bit (PDP-1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, "20"). John Francini Personal Computer Integration Engineering Digital Equipment Corporation Littleton, MA Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 14:40:08 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 14:39:44 -0500 Received: from rpi.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA08795; Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:09:34 EST Received: from MTS.RPI.EDU by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB31); id AA01690; Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:08:26 EST for PDP8-LOVERS@AI.MIT.EDU Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:06:08 EST From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Message-Id: <2798072@MTS.RPI.EDU> Subject: DEC's poor memory Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:06:08 EST From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: DEC's poor memory People inside DEC may remember the -8, but the biggest problem I've always had with DEC is that anyone who has a phone number accessible from the outside is uniformly clueless about almost everything. The only thing that works with any consistency is calling Field Circus and getting juggled from person to person until you get to someone who actually DOES something. I called DECdirect a couple of years ago while OS/8 V3D was still listed in the price list (as an upgrade only, not the whole package) and tried to find out what was missing from the upgrade package, and all they could say was "now wait, which model of VAX are you running?". John_Wilson@MTS.RPI.EDU Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 17:31:13 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 17:31:07 -0500 Received: from po2.andrew.cmu.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA12538; Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:02:19 EST Received: by po2.andrew.cmu.edu (5.54/3.15) id for pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu; Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:01:47 EST Received: via switchmail; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 17:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix4.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix4.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.0.1.873.EzMail.1.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix4.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax.ul4 via MS.5.6.unix4.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax_ul4; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, "Anthony A. Datri" Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, "Anthony A. Datri" Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: References: > me: I have a GIGI > DEC: what VAX do you have?.... Don't blame sales people....if they knew about computers, they would be engineers. You must be remembering the DEC of OLD, a company of engineers, for engineers. Moral of any technically oriented quest: Go to the schematics, source software, or the technical help, forget sales unless you want a used car or snakeoil. John Hudak ~ Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 17:46:56 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 17:46:53 -0500 Received: from decuac.DEC.COM by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA12974; Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:22:43 EST Received: from server.dco.dec.com by decuac.DEC.COM (5.65/Ultrix-fma) id AA04469; Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:22:41 -0500 XXX Received: by server.dco.dec.com (5.65/fma-100391); id AA04104; Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:00:06 -0500 Message-Id: <9204012200.AA04104@server.dco.dec.com> Received: from kxovax.enet; by decuac.enet; Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:22:37 EST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:22:37 EST From: Have you NASed someone today? To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Apparently-To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: Status of PDP-8 Software Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:22:37 EST From: Have you NASed someone today? To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Apparently-To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: Status of PDP-8 Software Never really being a true '8 guy I don't know about the actual status of PDP-8 software, although I have followed much of the PDP-11 stuff and assume the story is probably analagous. Digital has donated tons of retired software products to DECUS as binaries or source (or both). Probably the best official channel which could accomplish what you seek is to work it through the appropriate DECUS groups, who can post it to their respective Digital liaisons. Perhaps you could get a legal status that way. Specifically to the PDP-8, I know stuff like OS/278 was carried in the DECUS catalog... so that ought to be fair game and might be derived onto lots of platforms. There is probably a lot of other neat stuff in there too. Only problem is DECUS probably doesn't even LIST PDP-8 stuff in the catalog anymore -- they've cut more than half of the less popular or technologically dated PDP-11 and VAX software already (although there is still probably a DECmate section, I'd have to look). Anyway, that's probably the most effective approach. Find a champion through DECUS who has PDP-8 space mapped into his working set and you'll win. Regards, rcs Digital Equipment Corp., Digital Services/EIS (once "software services"), Knoxville, TN USA Disclaimer: opinions expressed are my own. Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 20:12:01 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 20:11:59 -0500 Received: from rpi.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA14998; Wed, 1 Apr 92 19:29:48 EST Received: from MTS.RPI.EDU by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB31); id AA20092; Wed, 1 Apr 92 19:30:29 EST for PDP8-LOVERS@AI.MIT.EDU Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 19:29:30 EST From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Message-Id: <2798904@MTS.RPI.EDU> Subject: Sales people Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 19:29:30 EST From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: Sales people >Go to the schematics, source software, or the technical help, forget >sales unless you want a used car or snakeoil. Most of the time, schematics, source software, or technical help is what I'm looking for in the first place! If only there were a hardware documentation version of the DECUS library... John_Wilson@MTS.RPI.EDU Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 12:26:19 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 12:26:03 -0500 Received: from lysator.liu.se ([130.236.23.254]) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA26825; Thu, 2 Apr 92 11:45:47 EST Received: by lysator.liu.se (5.65c8/1.34/Lysator-3.1) id AA01532; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 18:45:28 +0200 (rfc931-sender: pell@lysator.liu.se) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1992 18:45:28 +0200 From: pell@lysator.liu.se (P{r Emanuelsson) Message-Id: <199204021645.AA01532@lysator.liu.se> To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w? (DEC memory wipeout) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1992 18:45:28 +0200 From: pell@lysator.liu.se (P{r Emanuelsson) To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: copyright status of -8 s/w? (DEC memory wipeout) This probably isn't the right forum, but making people laugh could perhaps be an excuse. >I suspect that most of DEC has never even heard of the 8. A couple of years ago I phoned the person @ DEC responsible for software licensing. "Hi, I'd like a source code license for TOPS-20." "Ok..." "Ok, I'll check it up for you and get back to you as soon as possible." "Great, thanks." "By the way, this TOPS-20, is that a third-party product?" " " A day later he calls me back and triumphantly exclaims "Hey, I called Geneva and you were right! There was something called TOPS-20!" To his defense I must say that he actually did get me the license. Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 4 Apr 1992 16:43:09 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sat, 4 Apr 1992 16:43:05 -0500 Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA29122; Sat, 4 Apr 92 16:18:50 EST Received: from PO2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa03299; 1 Apr 92 17:08 EST Received: by po2.andrew.cmu.edu (5.54/3.15) id for PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu; Wed, 1 Apr 92 17:01:47 EST Received: via switchmail; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 17:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix4.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix4.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.0.1.873.EzMail.1.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix4.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax.ul4 via MS.5.6.unix4.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax_ul4; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, "Anthony A. Datri" Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 16:59:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, "Anthony A. Datri" Subject: Re: copyright status of -8 s/w? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: References: > me: I have a GIGI > DEC: what VAX do you have?.... Don't blame sales people....if they knew about computers, they would be engineers. You must be remembering the DEC of OLD, a company of engineers, for engineers. Moral of any technically oriented quest: Go to the schematics, source software, or the technical help, forget sales unless you want a used car or snakeoil. John Hudak ~ Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sun, 5 Apr 1992 00:45:01 -0500 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Sun, 5 Apr 1992 00:44:58 -0500 Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA03502; Sun, 5 Apr 92 00:30:18 EST Received: from ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa09626; 2 Apr 92 9:57 EST Received: by andrew.cmu.edu (5.54/3.15) id for PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu; Thu, 2 Apr 92 09:57:37 EST Received: via switchmail; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 09:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix4.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 09:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix4.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 09:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.0.1.873.EzMail.1.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix4.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax.ul4 via MS.5.6.unix4.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax_ul4; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 09:55:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4dqm1m600WB54MJKto@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1992 09:55:46 -0500 (EST) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu Subject: Re: Sales people Cc: In-Reply-To: <2798904@MTS.RPI.EDU> References: <2798904@MTS.RPI.EDU> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1992 09:55:46 -0500 (EST) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu Subject: Re: Sales people Cc: In-Reply-To: <2798904@MTS.RPI.EDU> References: <2798904@MTS.RPI.EDU> Hear, Hear on the HW version of DECUS!!!!!!!! John Hudak ~ Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:38:41 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:38:32 -0400 Received: from rpi.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA07902; Tue, 7 Apr 92 17:10:31 EDT Received: from MTS.RPI.EDU by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB31); id AA08593; Tue, 7 Apr 92 17:10:55 EDT for PDP8-LOVERS@AI.MIT.EDU Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 16:37:38 EDT From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Message-Id: <2809189@MTS.RPI.EDU> Subject: 93L415 SRAM chip Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 16:37:38 EDT From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: 93L415 SRAM chip Does anyone have or know where I can get 93L415 static RAM chips? They're 1Kx1 and very fast (don't know exactly, but they're used in the microcode store on the KS10). Many different parts of DEC have told me to screw off, and Ham/Av and JDR don't have it, couldn't find it in Newark's catalog. Thanks, John_Wilson@MTS.RPI.EDU Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:37:09 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:37:06 -0400 Received: from mail.uunet.ca (uunet.ca) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA04334; Wed, 8 Apr 92 12:09:47 EDT Received: from isgtec by mail.uunet.ca with UUCP id <53664>; Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:09:30 -0400 Received: by isgtec.isgtec.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.3) id ; Wed, 8 Apr 92 11:05 EDT Received: by hobbes.isgtec.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.20) id ; Wed, 8 Apr 92 11:04 EDT Message-Id: From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: Re: 93L415 SRAM chip To: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 11:04:33 -0400 Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: <2809189@MTS.RPI.EDU>; from "John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu" at Apr 7, 92 4:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: Re: 93L415 SRAM chip To: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 11:04:33 -0400 Cc: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: <2809189@MTS.RPI.EDU>; from "John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu" at Apr 7, 92 4:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu writes: > Does anyone have or know where I can get 93L415 static RAM chips? > They're 1Kx1 and very fast (don't know exactly, but they're used in > the microcode store on the KS10). I find both the 93L415 and 93L415A listed in the 1986 National Semi "Memory Databook". The A-part is listed (pg 6-24) as "Advance Information". This part has a 25nS (max) access time. It looks like the 93L415 was originally a Fairchild part, 2nd-sourced by NatSemi. One of these *must* be still available. Is the problem that you can't find a NatSemi disti? There are more National disti's than just H-A. Or is it that NatSemi disclaims knowledge of this part now? -- "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR" bmw@isgtec.com [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ] Bruce Walker Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:29:08 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:29:06 -0400 Received: from silver.ucs.indiana.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA25043; Wed, 8 Apr 92 22:07:58 EDT Message-Id: <9204090207.AA25043@life.ai.mit.edu> Received: by silver.ucs.indiana.edu (5.65c+/10jsm) id AA13092; Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:07:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:07:54 -0500 From: Jeff Russ To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: Misc DEC Equipment available Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 21:07:54 -0500 From: Jeff Russ To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu Subject: Misc DEC Equipment available The following equipment is available immediately. FPP-12 DECMate I LA180 RK05 disk controller Several Diablo disk drives (RK05 compatible) For more information contact: Gary Coleman, Uclid, Ohio, (216) 531-4661 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Russ russ@silver.ucs.indiana.edu University Computing Services PHONE: (812) 855-2733 Indiana University, Bloomington, IN I want to buy old PDP[4-9] systems. Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:21:51 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:21:36 -0400 Received: from rpi.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA15680; Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:58:46 EDT Received: from MTS.RPI.EDU by rpi.edu (4.1/SMHUB31); id AA22508; Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:59:31 EDT for PDP8-LOVERS@AI.MIT.EDU Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:58:32 EDT From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu, INFO-PDP11@transarc.com Message-Id: <2823639@MTS.RPI.EDU> Subject: FREE LA36 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 17:58:32 EDT From: John_Wilson@mts.rpi.edu To: PDP8-LOVERS@ai.mit.edu, INFO-PDP11@transarc.com Subject: FREE LA36 I have an LA36 which is blocking the way into my storage locker. Although I was psyched that getting this thing completed my collection of the entire DECwriter series, I honestly have no need for it, so I'm offering it to anyone who wants it. I got it for free (from DEC!), you can have it for free. I'm willing to deliver it, within reason, if you pay for gas; I'm going to Boston anyway this coming weekend, so if someone in Boston wants it, then forget the gas. John_Wilson@MTS.RPI.EDU (Troy, NY) Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:38:32 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:38:30 -0400 Received: from mail.uunet.ca (uunet.ca) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA17499; Tue, 14 Apr 92 19:25:04 EDT Received: from isgtec by mail.uunet.ca with UUCP id <53658>; Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:24:53 -0400 Received: by isgtec.isgtec.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.3) id ; Tue, 14 Apr 92 19:10 EDT Received: by hobbes.isgtec.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.20) id ; Tue, 14 Apr 92 19:10 EDT Message-Id: From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: CPU diagnostics anyone? To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:10:09 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: CPU diagnostics anyone? To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 19:10:09 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Does anyone have some PDP-8 CPU diagnostics around? It'd be nice if they were "on-line" so you could email or I could FTP them. But if you've only got paper-tape and can spare it, I'd arrange something. Thanks muchly! -- "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR" bmw@isgtec.com [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ] Bruce Walker Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:04:23 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:04:15 -0400 Received: from akbar.cac.washington.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA23069; Wed, 15 Apr 92 01:43:10 EDT Received: from tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu by akbar.cac.washington.edu (5.65/UW-NDC Revision: 2.25 ) id AA12507; Tue, 14 Apr 92 22:42:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:30:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: Mark Crispin Subject: last living example of WAITS (Foonly CPU) needs a new home To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers , PDP-8 Lovers Cc: Peter Lothberg , Pat Tressel , Hobroken Gang Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:30:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: Mark Crispin Subject: last living example of WAITS (Foonly CPU) needs a new home To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers , PDP-8 Lovers Cc: Peter Lothberg , Pat Tressel , Hobroken Gang Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Maximum distribution requestion. I have just been informed that the CCRMA Foonly F4, the last functioning example of the WAITS PDP-10 operating system on the planet, has been retired. It was powered down a week ago last Friday. WAITS was the innovative operating system developed at the Stanford AI Laboratory from a very old version of TOPS-10 (back when they called it 10/50) -- the last merges were from 3.54 days. It had a fantastic display environment which has to date remained unequalled by `modern' operating systems. Unless some kind soul interested in rescuing this piece of history speaks up soon, it may end up being taken for scrap, perhaps as soon as Thursday. It was working as of the time it was powered down, although there were known to be some glitches in its TTY and Ethernet interfaces. This machine and its software properly belongs in a museum, but until the world realizes what valuable gems they are allowing to be casually trashed, it is incumbant upon us to save this noble beast. I would volunteer myself, except I'm too busy with my myriad projects (including two 2020's) to give the F4 the loving nurture it so badly needs. It would probably end up in my garage, which would destroy it. The person to contact for more information is Tovar (that's his complete name). He can be reached by e-mail at tvr@CCRMA.STANFORD.EDU or by telephone at +1 (415) 328-0573. Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 12:13:02 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 12:12:55 -0400 Received: from mail.uunet.ca (uunet.ca) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA24517; Mon, 20 Apr 92 11:55:44 EDT Received: from isgtec by mail.uunet.ca with UUCP id <53372>; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 11:55:30 -0400 Received: by isgtec.isgtec.com (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.18.1 #18.3) id ; Mon, 20 Apr 92 11:40 EDT Message-Id: From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Received: by opus.isgtec.com (4.1/ISG-SUB-0.2) id AA23450; Mon, 20 Apr 92 11:40:09 EDT Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone? To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1992 11:40:08 -0400 Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: ; from "Charles Lasner" at Apr 15, 92 10:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone? To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1992 11:40:08 -0400 Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: ; from "Charles Lasner" at Apr 15, 92 10:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Charles Lasner writes: > Several of us can help with the stuff itself, but I would like to here > all of the scheme whereby you get the code into core, and what will > then be hooked up to it, etc. OK, but sit down first :-) The 'core' is an array of unsigned short ints in my Sun4 CPU. To get the code into core (assuming the code is in RIM format), I say: hobbes% interp code.rim . 7756g and the RIM loader will load it in. As you may have guessed by now, the 'cpu' that I need the diagnostics for is a simulated PDP-8. > PDP-8 diagnostics can be read into OS/8 which packs the files as "3 for > 2" of the original tapes, only with fore-shortened leader/trailer, and > a deliberate ^Z afterwards. These files can be used with my Kermit-12 > utility K12ENB to create .BOO format of the tapes. I was careful to > use the implied encoding sequence so the 8-bit bytes will transfer into > sequential 8-bit files when de-.BOO'ed on PC's using PC MSBPCT > programs. Thus, you can have PC versions of files that ought to be > directly sendable to the -8 running the binary loader. > > Hope this helps :-). That would be fine, except that I'd need a copy of the bin loader then, because I have recently discovered that my alleged copy of BIN turns out to be some random garbage that I accidentally punched on papertape about 20 years ago. Now the reason I need some diagnostics: my PDP-8 interpreter project is coming along swimmingly, but I have a problem. I don't have much s/w in RIM format, just a copy of 4K BASIC, so that is my de-facto test suite. The simulator runs the opening dialogue of BASIC, but it then loops ad nauseum spewing out line-feeds. So I either have a bad copy of BASIC as well (possible), or my simulator is buggy (much more likely). I have tested it a fair amount, but some of the more obscure possibilities (like "jms 177") are possibly done wrong since I have no real PDP-8 to compare against. To (possibly) whet your appetite, here is a transcript that I get: -- begin transcript -- hobbes% interp ptape/basic.rim . 7756g SELECT THE SMALLEST SET OF FUNCTIONS NEEDED FROM THE FOLLOWING CHOICES ATN ! !X! ! ! ! ! ! LOG+EXP ! !X!X! ! ! ! ! SIN+COS+TAN ! !X!X!X! ! ! ! DEF(FN) ! !X!X!X!X! ! ! SQR ! !X!X!X!X!X! ! RND ! !X!X!X!X!X!X! OPTION A B C D E F G TYPE OPTION LETTER?B DO SUBSCRIPTS START AT 0 OR 1?0 STOP. READY. [...lots of nl's elided...] ^C EMA: 0 MA: 2403 BUS: 4535 LINK: 1 ACC: 7442 MQ: 0000 jms i 0135 [2576] . -- end transcript -- What this is, is basically a simulation of a PDP-8 with extensions: a built-in ODT console and RIM loader. ODT is pretty plain, but I've extended it to include a single-step command and it dissassembles the current instruction location for you. The hooks are in, but I haven't finished: full -8/e (MQ, etc); EMA; more IOT's like high-speed papertape, etc. Anyone silly enough to be interested in alpha testing it (it is known to run under SunOS and MSDOS but it should be easily ported) can drop me a line. I can ship you a PC executable if you'd like to just play. Of course, when this is done, I'll release it to the public domain (assuming the 'public' doesn't reject it :-). [As to the ultimate question, "why?", you don't want to know.] -- "CAUTION: OBJECTS IN SCREEN ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR" bmw@isgtec.com [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ] Bruce Walker Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:49:22 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:49:19 -0400 Received: from andrew.cmu.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA07344; Mon, 20 Apr 92 19:29:49 EDT Received: by andrew.cmu.edu (5.54/3.15) id for pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu; Mon, 20 Apr 92 19:28:11 EDT Received: via switchmail; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs8.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs8.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.0.1.871.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs8.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax.ul4 via MS.5.6.pcs8.andrew.cmu.edu.pmax_ul4; Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:26:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1992 19:26:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Hudak To: PDP8-LOVERS@mc.lcs.mit.edu, bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Subject: Re: CPU diagnostics anyone? Cc: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu In-Reply-To: PDP-8 simulations? I am not quite sure what you all are doing, but, the following information may be helpful. Here at Carnegie Mellon (CMU) around the late 70's early 80's there was a cpu and system simulation language developed called ISPS (Instruction set processor simulator) or phonetically called "ispis." As one of its benchmark, standard architectures simulated was the PDP 8 E (I believe). The simulator was used extensively by some companies developing and comparing various architectures. You would feed it an input instruction string, it would chunk away and you could display various internal register sets, watch memory change, etc. It was ported to lots of machines, including vaxes and suns. It ran kinda slow, but was accurate. Many a grad student found a masters project with ISPS and many a grad student ended up teaching it to undergrads. If there is any real interest in this helping you do what you want, contact me and I'll see if we have a tape around somewhere. The last know version of VMS that it worked under was 3. something. John Hudak Summary-line: 21-Apr ahm@gnat.rent.com #someone is selling a PDP-8/E Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 03:48:22 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 03:48:19 -0400 Received: from rutgers.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA24900; Wed, 22 Apr 92 03:24:30 EDT Received: from bobsbox.rent.com by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP id AA14914; Wed, 22 Apr 92 03:03:02 EDT Received: by bobsbox.rent.com (V1.15/Amiga) id AA03iid; Tue, 21 Apr 92 20:45:06 EST Received: by gnat.rent.com (1.64/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 21 Apr 92 12:16:51 EST for pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 12:16:48 EST Organization: gnat - Dunellen, NJ From: ahm@gnat.rent.com (Andreas Meyer) To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: someone is selling a PDP-8/E Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 12:16:48 EST Organization: gnat - Dunellen, NJ From: ahm@gnat.rent.com (Andreas Meyer) To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: someone is selling a PDP-8/E In case anyone missed it, or doesn't get misc.forsale.computers... -----cut-here----- From: scott@grip.cis.upenn.edu (Scott Silverstein MD) Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers Subject: PDP-8/E for sale Keywords: Digital, PDP, PDP-8 Message-ID: <74847@netnews.upenn.edu> Date: 19 Apr 92 12:53:38 GMT Sender: news@netnews.upenn.edu Distribution: misc.forsale.computers,misc.forsale Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu Digital PDP-8/E, working, mint condition, for sale. Complete set of spare boards including front panel board, various interface boards, software on paper tape. Sitting in an air-conditioned den since 1982 after removal from service. 4K core installed, 2 extra 4K core sets included. Full docs. Make offer. I can list boards by part # if interested. -----cut-here----- Reply to the address in the message. I have no connection to this fellow, other than providing this FYI. Thanks, Andy Summary-line: 23-Apr lasner@watsun.cc.columbia # Received: from ELI.CS.YALE.EDU by BUGS.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Thu, 23 Apr 1992 00:30:02 -0400 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by eli.CS.YALE.EDU via SMTP; Thu, 23 Apr 1992 00:29:39 -0400 Received: from watsun.cc.columbia.edu by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA00816; Thu, 23 Apr 92 00:12:19 EDT Received: by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB) id AA08396; Thu, 23 Apr 92 00:12:17 EDT Date: Thu, 23 Apr 92 0:12:16 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Cc: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu Message-Id: Date: Thu, 23 Apr 92 0:12:16 EDT From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Cc: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu From: Charles Lasner To: pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu Subject: USEFUL Simulators of PDP-8's A USEFUL simulator of an -8 is not merely a CPU with a few register dumps, etc., as might be implied in some recent postings. A simulator wants to be a complete system, including a device 03/04 console interface, preferably to a decent terminal emulation such as VT-100, etc., as well as a disk device, preferably one that exists on a REAL -8 so we can get a running system up from a real machine where it pre-exists. Niceties include comm ports and a device 66 lpt:, etc., as well as native OS hooks such as a file where a device 01/02 reader/punch does i/o to, etc. An optimal device for the purpose is the MDC8 from CESI which is the PDP-8 SCSI interface to various HD's and high-density floppies. I have supplied/can supply working copies of P?S/8, OS/8, KERMIT-12, etc. to various emulator authors on floppies that can boot from a suitably configured -8, and hopefully from a completed emulator as well. Work is being done on PC and MAC versions I am aware of.