From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Wed Nov 4 14:19:28 EST 1992 Article: 53 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Distribution of alt.sys.pdp8 improved Message-ID: <1992Nov4.191738.14196@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 19:17:38 GMT Following a proper newgroup insertion, alt.sys.pdp8 should be "on the air" to more sites now. Anyone still having problems should talk to their admins, etc. cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!ivie Wed Nov 4 19:36:07 EST 1992 Article: 54 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!ivie From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Finally! Message-ID: <1992Nov4.120110.60377@cc.usu.edu> Date: 4 Nov 92 12:01:09 MDT Organization: Utah State University Lines: 7 Well, alt.sys.pdp8 seems to have finally migrated to Uath I presume that I'm connected to the rest of the world? -- Roger Ivie "My God! That computer is full of Pentium! ivie@cc.usu.edu It's a wonder that you haven't been turned into mutants!" From news.columbia.edu!rpi!think.com!spdcc!eli Thu Nov 5 15:59:55 EST 1992 Article: 55 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!think.com!spdcc!eli From: eli@spdcc.com (Steve Elias) Subject: Re: Distribution of alt.sys.pdp8 improved Message-ID: <1992Nov5.081220.4823@spdcc.com> Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA References: <1992Nov4.191738.14196@news.columbia.edu> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 08:12:20 GMT Lines: 23 off to a terrifically technical start: with dectape drives in cabinets mounted like so: A B C D run a tape from drive C to drive D, running over the heads heads of drive A and B. next (on TS8) access drives C and D from two different terminals, cower behind console terminal waiting for the inevitable startrek-like explosion. but it never happens, because dectapes are almost as strong as duct tape. TAD, /eli -- /* eli@spdcc.com */ From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!uunet!pipex!warwick!uknet!bnr.co.uk!bnrgate!corpgate!crchh327!bnr.ca!grier Thu Nov 5 16:00:24 EST 1992 Article: 56 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!uunet!pipex!warwick!uknet!bnr.co.uk!bnrgate!corpgate!crchh327!bnr.ca!grier From: grier@bnr.ca (Brian Grier) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Scary Thoughts Message-ID: <1992Nov05.143334.21226@bnr.ca> Date: 5 Nov 92 14:33:34 GMT Sender: news@bnr.ca (News on crchh327) Organization: Bell Northern Research Lines: 10 Nntp-Posting-Host: 131.253.206.80 I thought that the PDP-8 had long ago disapeared. I used to own a PDP-8e with a dual DEC-Tape drive, OS-8, Fortran II compiler, FOCAL, and assembler. I gave the system to a computer museum in Westminster Mass about 6 years ago. I still have the IBM programming card for the PDP-8, sort of scary. Brian, WS1S Bell Northern Research Research Triangle Park, NC From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!psuvax1!uxa.ecn.bgu.edu!mgcbo Thu Nov 5 16:01:04 EST 1992 Article: 57 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uwm.edu!psuvax1!uxa.ecn.bgu.edu!mgcbo From: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) Subject: PDP-8 Collectors Message-ID: Organization: Educational Computing Network Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:23:09 GMT Lines: 31 I was very interested to notice this new newsgroup. I have long been interested in obtaining a small PDP-8 system as a collector item, to restore and get operational. I think lots of the machines are still floating around (???) Questions: Is anyone else doing this, as just a hobby (not maintaining one for business use)? How available is software that I would not have to pay DEC for? Much PD available? For obsolete hardware, it would almost make sense for DEC to give the stuff away. Any problem maintaining these systems? I am very good at electronics, so I can handle anything I can get parts for. But, are there many custom parts that are difficult to obtain? (particularly mechanical parts) DEC still support? (Reasonably) Any idea what used systems are costing? I an talking about the real PDP-8's, not the Rainbows. Thanks for any comments. Charles B. Owen -- | Charles B. Owen Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu | | Western Illinois University Phone: 309-837-4292 | | 1002 E. Murray | | Macomb, IL 61455 | From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!mmm.serc.3m.com!us048503 Thu Nov 5 16:13:49 EST 1992 Article: 58 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!mmm.serc.3m.com!us048503 From: us048503@mmm.serc.3m.com (Art H. Hurst) Subject: Re: Scary Thoughts Message-ID: <1992Nov5.185507.10042@mmm.serc.3m.com> Organization: 3M Company References: <1992Nov05.143334.21226@bnr.ca> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 18:55:07 GMT Lines: 22 In article <1992Nov05.143334.21226@bnr.ca> grier@bnr.ca (Brian Grier) writes: >I thought that the PDP-8 had long ago disapeared. I used to own >a PDP-8e with a dual DEC-Tape drive, OS-8, Fortran II compiler, >FOCAL, and assembler. I gave the system to a computer museum in >Westminster Mass about 6 years ago. > >I still have the IBM programming card for the PDP-8, sort of scary. > >Brian, WS1S >Bell Northern Research >Research Triangle Park, NC I had an 8/L!! donated to Ventura CA museum. Still have an 8a manual and programming cards. ASR33 I/O w/ paper tape --! 10 char/sec printout. Them were the good 'ol days! All day to get a 4k 12 bit program running -- if all went well. You prayed the paper tape wouldn't miss a punch on the 3 pass read. -- Art Hurst Email: ahhurst@mmm.com 3M Company Phone: (805)388-4170 Digital Storage Products Division FAX: (805)388-4804 Camarillo CA 93012 From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Thu Nov 5 16:15:45 EST 1992 Article: 59 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Collectors Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1992Nov5.195426.10466@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:54:26 GMT References: Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 79 >From article , by mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen): > I think lots of the machines are still floating around (???) Yes they are. Over the summer, I picked up three Omnibus machines (model E, F and A) at U of Iowa surplus, and I know where there are a number of model I and L machines on campus, yet to be sent to surplus. I suspect that most big research universities are similar, with various machines mothballed or in storage closets in various places on campus. Look in the back storerooms of chemistry, engineering, or psychology labs for such things. > > Is anyone else doing this, as just a hobby (not maintaining one for > business use)? I have a model E and a model F in my study at home, neither works yet, but I ought to be able to get one up fairly soon (given the time to track down some bugs in the front panel). If I had a spare RX8E board, I'd be able to build two complete useful systems, since I have two RX01 dual diskette drives. At work, I've talked our department into providing a home for a 1966 vintage PDP-8, and I have a small group of students starting the job of figuring out whether it is safe to plug it in and try turning it on (such wonderful questions as: are all the flip-chip modules plugged into the right slots, and what cables go where?) There are also very likely to be many industrial users of PDP-8 based systems. Just last month, I was talking to a man from an Alcoa plant, and he said that they were still using NC machines that were real antiques. I'd lay even odds on an antique NC machine being PDP-8 based! > > How available is software that I would not have to pay DEC for? Much PD > available? There's a young but growing PD repository of PDP-8 software at ftp.telebit.com. I'm not clear on whether I have the right to distribute the ancient DEC source code I have, but I'll be finding out. > For obsolete hardware, it would almost make sense for DEC to > give the stuff away. Yes. So far, DEC has been quite nice about granting permission to reprint their documentation, and I imagine they'll let us do the same to their ancient software, but I have not confirmed this. Remember that DEC only discontinued the PDP-8 product line in 1990 with the demise of the DECmate III+, so some PDP-8 software may still be considered to have current market value, and DEC probably still has a number of customers with service contracts and other money making relationships who are running DECmates and end-of-the-run Omnibus machines. > > Any problem maintaining these systems? I am very good at electronics, > so I can handle anything I can get parts for. But, are there many > custom parts that are difficult to obtain? (particularly mechanical > parts) DEC still support? (Reasonably) Everything can still be found commercially, much of it on the reconditioned second-hand market. Individual boards for the OMNIBUS models of the PDP-8 sell for about $75, on the price lists I've seen. If you get a classic or straight -8, parts are no problem, since everything is discrete component, and plain transistors and diodes will never go out of style. If you get an OMNIBUS machine, there are custom SSI and MSI chips used that are out of production. If you ever need to replace such a chip, you'll have to hunt down one of a small stock of spares or cannibalize a chip from a different board. I have collected every OMNIBUS board I could get my hands on for this purpose, including a number of real junkers that were hand kluged I/O interfaces for one-of-a-kind devices. > > Any idea what used systems are costing? I an talking about the real > PDP-8's, not the Rainbows. I bought a PDP-8/E, and 8/F and an 8/A plus two RX01 units for a total of $25. I spent $35 for one relay rack, and got the other free. Of course, when you buy surplus, you never know whether or not it will work, and the good prices only happen when there's nobody else bidding on the stuff. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!sunic!kth.se!sillbit Fri Nov 6 06:07:05 EST 1992 Article: 60 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!sunic!kth.se!sillbit From: sillbit@stacken.kth.se (Johnny Billquist) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Collectors Message-ID: <1992Nov5.205734.5758@kth.se> Sender: usenet@kth.se (Usenet) Nntp-Posting-Host: alex.stacken.kth.se Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden References: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:57:34 GMT Lines: 52 In article mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes: >I was very interested to notice this new newsgroup. I have long been >interested in obtaining a small PDP-8 system as a collector item, >to restore and get operational. I think lots of the machines are still >floating around (???) Yup, I'd definitely say so. >Questions: > >Is anyone else doing this, as just a hobby (not maintaining one for >business use)? I know of quite a few who maintain pdp8 systems just for the fun of it. I'm one of them. I have actually scrounged together 7 pdp8 systems. >How available is software that I would not have to pay DEC for? Much PD >available? For obsolete hardware, it would almost make sense for DEC to >give the stuff away. I'd say you could get every piece of software for the pdp8 without paying anything. DEC has released much to DECUS, and I doubt they would try to sell any of it today. >Any problem maintaining these systems? I am very good at electronics, >so I can handle anything I can get parts for. But, are there many >custom parts that are difficult to obtain? (particularly mechanical >parts) DEC still support? (Reasonably) I'm not that very bright on electronics, but I'm not having too much trouble keeping systems running. Just get the drawings for the machine and everything will be quite easy. DEC also still has some of the hardware in stock, if you just ask the right person. >Any idea what used systems are costing? I an talking about the real >PDP-8's, not the Rainbows. Most of these systems goes for free nowadays. Maybe a few bucks, but not much. Rainbow is not a pdp8, by the way. I suspect you are thinking of the DECmate I, II and III. >Thanks for any comments. >Charles B. Owen You're welcome. -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixb.cc.columbia.edu!slb22 Fri Nov 6 06:07:48 EST 1992 Article: 61 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixb.cc.columbia.edu!slb22 From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth L. Blumberg) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Collectors References: <1992Nov5.195426.10466@news.uiowa.edu> Sender: nobody@ctr.columbia.edu Organization: Generic American College Kids (G.A.C.K.) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:30:12 GMT Message-ID: <1992Nov6.013012.16601@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth L. Blumberg) X-Posted-From: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu In article jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) writes: >There are also very likely to be many industrial users of PDP-8 >based systems. Just last month, I was talking to a man from an >Alcoa plant, and he said that they were still using NC machines >that were real antiques. I'd lay even odds on an antique NC >machine being PDP-8 based! Oh, yes indeedy, there are many, many industrial PDP-8 setups out there. A guy I used to know--field service rep for a measuring-equipment company--said that his main job is maintaining 8/L and 8/I (and some 8/E or /F) setups installed back in the late '60s, early '70s. Apparently, it's mostly the specialized OEM hardware that needs fixing--the 8's just keep on rolling. Many plants that use his company's stuff also use 8-based NC rigs. Kind of awe-inspiring, when you think about it. > Doug Jones > jones@cs.uiowa.edu Seth "the Lesser" Seth L. Blumberg \ Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. slb22@columbia.edu (play) \ Blumberg's Corollary: And the rest ain't so sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \ hot, either. > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. < From news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!cronkite.ocis.temple.edu!astro.ocis.temple.edu!lafollet Fri Nov 6 06:08:26 EST 1992 Article: 62 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!stanford.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!cronkite.ocis.temple.edu!astro.ocis.temple.edu!lafollet From: lafollet@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Paul Lafollette) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Collectors Message-ID: <1992Nov6.020346.10887@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> Date: 6 Nov 92 02:03:46 GMT References: <1992Nov5.205734.5758@kth.se> Sender: news@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu (NetWork News (readnews)) Organization: Temple University Lines: 7 X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5 Wow. Reading this makes me miss "my" LINC-8. Wish I could find one and had room and time to set it up. Incidentally, up until last year I was still teaching PDP-8 assembly language in one of our courses here. (Not my decision, but it was fun anyhow.) I think I still have a couple copies of the little brown book that DEC gave out on reserve in our library :) From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!concert!rock!stanford.edu!kronos.arc.nasa.gov!iscnvx!netcomsv!netcom.com!rla Fri Nov 6 22:23:10 EST 1992 Article: 63 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!uvaarpa!concert!rock!stanford.edu!kronos.arc.nasa.gov!iscnvx!netcomsv!netcom.com!rla From: rla@netcom.com (Robert Armstrong) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Collectors Message-ID: <1992Nov6.173618.1702@netcom.com> Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) References: Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:36:18 GMT Lines: 54 mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes: >Questions: >Is anyone else doing this, as just a hobby (not maintaining one for >business use)? I have an 8/A that's currently in storage, although I used to run it all the time before I ran out of room to keep it! It has two RK05s (an F and a J), RX02, TU56, 32K MOS (I also have a 16K core board, but it takes up too much room in the backplane), and a real VT52 for a console. I've also owned a few DECmates and one VT78, but I don't have any at the moment. I also built a system once based on the IM6100 and 6102. It had 8K RAM and a cassette tape (that's an _audio_ cassette, Kansas City format!) interface. I managed to get FOCAL running on it. >How available is software that I would not have to pay DEC for? Much PD >available? For obsolete hardware, it would almost make sense for DEC to >give the stuff away. There's an archive of some PDP-8 software at telebit.com. Also, OS/278 is available, with or without sources, from DECUS. A few other PDP-8 software packages are still available from DECUS. Other than that, DEC isn't giving any software away. They've given permission to reproduce hardware manuals that they no longer sell, but as far as I know DEC's never given permission to distribute old PDP-8 software. I'm sure there's no value in holding on to it - probably there's just nobody willing stick their neck out and say "It's free!". >Any problem maintaining these systems? I am very good at electronics, >so I can handle anything I can get parts for. But, are there many >custom parts that are difficult to obtain? (particularly mechanical >parts) DEC still support? (Reasonably) The later machines, 8/I and after, use standard TTL parts. The 8/A had a few LSI chips, like UARTs, in it. I've successfully replaced chips on my RK8E controller and LP8E. I still see PDP-8 components for sale by some of the used DEC equipment resalers, but not nearly as much as there was 10 years ago. Used DECmates are still relatively easy to buy from these places. I've no idea if DEC still sells replacement parts. They'd probably be much too expensive to be useful even if they did. Good luck. Bob Armstrong rla@netcom.com From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!cbmvax!jesup Fri Nov 6 22:26:24 EST 1992 Article: 64 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!cbmvax!jesup From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Collectors Message-ID: <36774@cbmvax.commodore.com> Date: 6 Nov 92 20:24:46 GMT References: <1992Nov5.195426.10466@news.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA Lines: 35 jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: > At work, I've talked our department into providing a home for a > 1966 vintage PDP-8, and I have a small group of students starting > the job of figuring out whether it is safe to plug it in and try > turning it on (such wonderful questions as: are all the flip-chip > modules plugged into the right slots, and what cables go where?) The RPI-ACM once (early-80's) had a PDP-8 (no /anything), ALL flip- chips, with adjustable power supply for preventive maintenance, and an entire second cabinet of flip-chips for running X-ray crystallography experiments. (It included a pulse-amplifier hooked up to a speaker for playing music...) I designed (but never built) a DMA printer driver using flip-chips to run a 700 LPM Burroughs line-printer we also happened to have. (That printer was eventually responsible for sending me to the hospital, when we had a "printer-bash" during GM week...) I also use an 8/e with dectape in high-school. I still have about 10 tapes, mostly set up using Educomp OS/8 and EduBasic. I also have 3 trays of paper-tape software, including Focal, a couple of basics, fortran (I think), and a bunch of other things, including a chess program. The RPI PDP-8 was lent to the secretary for a halloween thing at his fraternity (he wasn't much into real programming), and his fraternity burnt down before he returned it. argh.... I wanted that machine... I would _love_ to get my hands on an 8/e with tape drives. Even an 8/anything with paper tape would be better than nothing. -- To be or not to be = 0xff - Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com BIX: rjesup Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion. From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Sat Nov 7 01:28:09 EST 1992 Article: 65 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:33338 alt.sys.pdp8:65 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: command abbreviation Message-ID: <1992Nov7.034545.12567@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1de46gINNkps@early-bird.think.com> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 03:45:45 GMT In article <1de46gINNkps@early-bird.think.com> sandee@Think.COM (Daan Sandee) writes: >In article , jsr@dexter.mi.org (Jay S. Rouman) writes: >|> In article u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (John Lamp) writes: >|> >shades of the dreaded pip command of CP/M and DEC fame - this also was a >|> >copy command which was pip >|> >|> I agree that the PIP syntax seems backwards, but in all fairness, you >|> left out the equals sign. It's "PIP destination = source". It really >|> isn't much stranger than "x = 1". >|> -- >|> Jay Rouman (jsr@dexter.mi.org jsr@ais.org) > >Actually, even longer ago, it was > pip dest <- source >where the left arrow was a valid character on KSR38s and other wild machines. When I started with the PDP-10, the model 33 teletypes had a left-arrow key and it was used as described. But it became an under-score, and the up-arrow became a caret. The caret isn't too far removed from up-arrow, so up-arrow-C and the like was still acceptable, and is usually read as "control-C" anyway. A print option to this effect was even called "arrow mode". But the underscore was unacceptable, so someone decided to use = as an alternate character. Newer stuff dropped the underscore altogether, and just use = (CP/M PIP). Newer still systems just use without any separators at all, on the theory that it flows that way, so you don't need it. (Also some systems used = as a separator in this order which totally confuses one who switches.) In my proprietary system for the PDP-8 (P?S/8) I allow a dual command syntax: .PAL BARBAR The brackets "point" at the output side, so "FOO" is input and "BAR" is output in both examples. You must supply either. IF there is no output, then: .PAL FOO is acceptable, but the only way to have output without input would be: .PAL>BAR or .PAL BAR< DEC's OS/8 family generally uses the .PAL BAR Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp8 Sender: news@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Netnews Admin) Organization: Hydro Quebec Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:49:03 GMT Lines: 12 A guy I know is looking for a floppy controller, a DSD210, he says. If you can help him, please call him directly at: Michel Fortin DIGICO 514-967-7100 If you cannot reach him, e-mail me. Thanks. Alain Martineau Hydro Quebec martineau@macmartineau.ccr.hydro.qc.ca From news.columbia.edu!rpi!jwilson Sun Nov 8 03:12:41 EST 1992 Article: 67 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!jwilson From: jwilson@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John Wilson) Subject: PDP-8 spares Message-ID: Nntp-Posting-Host: unix.cie.rpi.edu Organization: CIE, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 01:50:59 GMT Lines: 13 In response to someone's question, DEC does in fact still sell some PDP-8 spares. They vary from "kinda expensive" to "outrageous", but if you screw up one of your core stacks they've really got you cornered. As I remember, M8350's were kinda reasonable though, M8360's aren't available (bummer!), and RX8E's were something around $250, which is a hell of a lot but they've gotten really rare lately... On the other hand, they wanted almost $200 for the paddle card/cable that goes between an RK8E and the first RK05 -- if anyone has one of these to sell for a *lot* less than this I'd be very interested! John Wilson [00,03] long ago... From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Wed Nov 11 01:59:34 EST 1992 Article: 68 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: DEC PDP-4 Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1992Nov10.171940.23807@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:19:40 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Our news server here at Iowa just died and is being reborn, so I thought I'd do a test posting. In looking through my July 1965 copy of "Digital Flip Chip Modules" (this is the predecessor of the well known "Digital Logic Handbook" series, but in loose leaf format), I came across the following references to the DEC PDP-4 computer: Page 8, a photograph shows a man at the console of a computer, inserting a Flip Chip module into a test fixture. The computer has "PDP-4" on one side of one of the 4 visible relay-racks, in 2" high letters. The caption is "Computer-controlled module tester performs complete electrical tests." Page 10 has a photo showing a man sitting in front of a Gardner Denver Wire Wrap machine, with a bit of an IBM keypunch off to one side. The caption reads "Back panel wiring for PDP-7 being done automatically from punched cards generated on a PDP-4 computer. There is one more picture that is relevant to the PDP-4. This is in the 1966-67 "Digital Logic Handbook" (Copyright 1966). I believe that this is the first edition. On page xii is a photo that I believe shows the same PDP-4 based module test fixture that was on Page 8 of the 1965 module handbook. The relay racks look like they've been rearranged, but the console, scope, and test fixture look the same, and the same archaic (pre ASR-33) teletype is on the worktable by the console. These photos suggest that the PDP-4 had the following physical configuration: From above __________ __________ | | | | 2 pairs of CAB-1 | | | | 19 relay racks | | | | (CAB-6 racks are |__________| |__________| possible -- the | | | | photos don't show | | | | the difference) | | | | |__________| _______|__________|________ | |______| | Test fixture | | panel protrudes | | slightly over | | table top. |___________________________| _ |\ \ Direction of view in photos. From the side __________ __________ | | | | | | | ________ | Raised aluminum| PDP-4 | ||[ ] || Big ugly Tektronics letters on |__________| ||[ ] || scope black top side |----------| || || panel | | ||________|| | | | | Analog output panel Bottom side | | |__________| to scope panel is dull | | | | pale color, | | |__________| Test fixture console standard | | |__________| Test fixture color of DEC | | ============================= Table top racks at the | | | | time was blue. | | | | | | | | |__________| |__________| ^ | This rack is not visible in the 1966-67 photo, Neither photo shows the actual control panel of the PDP-4, unless it is the small panel above the test fixture console on the side of the right rack. Note that the french doors on the normal front sides of the racks are unbroken by any hint of a console or other decoration, and note that all of the console panels and the identifying PDP-4 panel are on what would normally be called the sides of the relay racks. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Wed Nov 11 02:16:23 EST 1992 Article: 69 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: DEC PDP-4 Message-ID: <1992Nov11.071359.22274@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov10.171940.23807@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 07:13:59 GMT I briefly saw a PDP-4 in the Maynard Mill Complex, and it may very well be the machine from the picture. It had a Model 28 baudot teletype console, and small Alco-type snap switches on the front panel. (Much harder to use than later designs such as the PDP-8.) But some of those captions are confusing: wasn't the PDP-7 not actually wire-wrapped, but soldered like the PDP-5, and used Systems Modules? The PDP-9 was definitely constructed like the PDP-8, using Gardner-Denver automatic wire-wrap equipment, so why would a forerunner be essentially the same design? In any case, DEC has been known to "fake" some of those pictures for the add copy. One rather infamous picture of what is alledgedly a PDP-15 panel actually has an 8/l panel as part of it, and upside-down! A PDP-12 photo shows something that was never put into production: lettering in lower-case on the silk-screen. I was once shown the room where all the "sexy" cabinets for the early COS-300 systems were photographed. These cabinets were painted with bright colors, and there was even a silly plastic front plate over a TU56 DECtape, as well as a modified TU-10 where the drive is low in the cabinet, but has a modified control panel made to fit into the top of the lower cabinet. All of the machines were places over various fabrics on the floor to achieve a "stage presence" or some sort of "office of the future" notion, etc. Some of these pictures are often found in early COS-300 manuals or associated ad copy. The level of hype throughout all these ads is consistent with the thread about the irrelevance of "flip chips" as a concept, as opposed to the name that became applied to the modules, regardless of actual component type. Apparently DEC always used the same sort of ad agency, which was obsessed with dramatic camera angles, etc., to suggest some sort of futuristic look to all of the machines back then. There's even a funny shot of a KA-10 with a few DECtape drives, implying that an extra-large cabinet was the entire PDP-10 system in useful form. Several years later, the opposite extreme was achieved, with a poster of a typical computer-center-like layout with an aerial view, raised floor, many cabinets, and a legend explaining what each cabinet group was used for, etc. A partial version of this picture became a back cover for at least one PDP-10 manual. cjl From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Fri Nov 13 00:27:48 EST 1992 Article: 70 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:33607 alt.sys.pdp8:70 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: PDP-8A 500 Message-ID: <1992Nov13.025855.16285@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov13.002118.15603@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 02:58:55 GMT In article <1992Nov13.002118.15603@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> cchd@lucifer.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) writes: > >I've just aquired my first 'real' PDP-8 to go with my DECmateII :-) >I was told that I was getting a PDP-8A but when it arrived it was a >PDP-8A 500 (according to the front panel). It doesn't look like the >photos of 8A's that are in "Computer Engineering - A DEC view..." (which >is my bible of old PDP photos :-) > >Does anyone have any further information? From the little I know about >the system there are three boards making up the CPU (floating point >too???), a core memory board (my understanding was that 8As had >semiconductor memory), a console serial card and a controller for the dual >RX02s. > >This is a repost of an article I posted to alt.sys.pdp8. I received no >replies to my posting, so I'm assuming that (for mysterious reasons) my >posting didn't escape from here.... >-- > Huw Davies | Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Computing Services | Phone: +61 3 479 1500 Fax: +61 3 479 1999 > La Trobe University | I own an Alfa to keep me poor in a monetary > Melbourne Australia | sense, but rich in so many other ways A repost now (besides being unnecessary in light of this post) would now get onto most peoples news sources. To answer the question, no, it's not an 8/a-800, so it has no FPP. The 8/a 500 is an obscure box with 12 slots, but inlike the 8/a 400 it doesn't support MOS memory, rather it supports core. There may be a restriction to only two modules total, thus only 8K or 16K depending, or 16K to 32K if it can support two pairs. There is no battery backup, etc. In all other ways, it's an 8/a 400. cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Fri Nov 13 16:41:34 EST 1992 Article: 71 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: FAQ Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1992Nov13.141832.23053@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:18:32 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 634 In celebration of the new wide distribution of alt.sys.pdp8, I am reposting the following: =========================================================================== Frequently Asked Questions about the PDP-8 By Douglas Jones, jones@cs.uiowa.edu (with help from many folks) Contents What is a PDP? What is a PDP-8? What is the PDP-8 instruction set? What does PDP-8 assembly language look like? What different PDP-8 models were made? Where can I get a PDP-8 today? Where can I get PDP-8 documentation? What operating systems were written for the PDP-8? What programming languages were supported on the PDP-8 Where can I get PDP-8 software? Where can I get additional information? What use is a PDP-8 today? What is a PDP? For over a decade, all programmable digital computers sold by Digital Equipment Corporation were sold as Programmable Data Processors (PDPs) instead of computers. I have DEC documentation that actually calls them "PDPs", so this is not improper usage. DEC's first computer, the PDP-1, had a selling price of $120,000 at a time when competing machines were selling for over $1,000,000. Everyone (DEC's stockholders included) knew that computers were big and expensive and needed a computer center and a large staff, and apparently, DEC chose to avoid dealing with these stereotypes by entirely avoiding the term "computer". DEC built a number of different computers under the PDP label, with a huge range of price and performance. The largest of these are fully worthy of large computer centers with big support staffs. Here is the list of PDP computers (and some others): PDP-1 -- (1959) DEC's first computer, 18 bits/word. PDP-2 -- ( ) Possibly a paper 24 bit machine, never built. PDP-3 -- ( ) a 36 bit machine, only 1 was ever built. PDP-4 -- ( ) 18 bits/word, little is known about it. PDP-5 -- (1963) The ancestor of the PDP-8, 12 bits/word. PDP-6 -- ( ) DEC's first really big computer, 36 bits/word. PDP-7 -- ( <66) 18 bits/word, widely used for real-time control. PDP-8 -- (1965) 12 bits/word, the smallest and cheapest PDP. PDP-9 -- (1966) An upgrade of the PDP-7. PDP-10 -- (1967) A large scale timesharing system, a PDP-6 upgrade. PDP-11 -- (1970) DEC's first and only 16 bit minicomputer. PDP-12 -- (1969) Originally known as the LINC-8/I, a PDP-8 superset. PDP-13 -- Bad luck, there was no such machine. PDP-14 -- ( ) A ROM-based industrial controller, not a computer! PDP-15 -- ( ) A TTL upgrade of the PDP-9. PDP-16 -- (1972) A module system at the register-transfer level. DECSYSTEM-20 -- What marketroids decided to rename the PDP-10. VAX-11/780 -- Originally the PDP-11/78 Virtual Address eXtension. (corrections to this list are welcome, as are the dates of initial offering for these machines.) Today, all of the PDP machines are in DEC's corporate past, with the exception of the PDP-11 family of minicomputers and microprocessors. What is a PDP-8? The PDP-8 family of minicomputers were built by Digital Equipment corporation between 1965 and 1990 (if you include the PDP-5, the starting date should be 1963). These machines were characterized by a 12 bit word, with no hardware byte structure, a 4K minimum memory configuration, and a simple but powerful instruction set. By 1970, the PDP-8 was the best selling computer in the world, and many models of the PDP-8 set new records as the least expensive computer on the market. The PDP-8 has been described as the model-T of the computer industry. C. Gordon Bell (who later was chief architect of the PDP-11 and who, as Vice President, oversaw the development of the VAX) says that the basic idea of the PDP-8 was not really original with him. He gives credit to Seymour Cray (of CDC and later Cray) for the idea of a single-accumulator 12 bit minicomputer. Cray's CDC 160 family, sold starting around 1959, certainly was a very similar 12 bit architecture, and the peripheral processors of Cray's first supercomputer, the CDC 6600, also look very familiar to PDP-8 programmers. What is the PDP-8 instruction set? The PDP-8 word size is 12 bits, and the basic memory is 4K words. The minimal CPU contained the following visible registers: PC - the program counter, 12 bits. AC - the accumulator, 12 bits. L - the link, 1 bit, commonly prefixed to AC as . It is worth noting that many operations such as procedure linkage and indexing which are usually thought of as involving registers were done with memory on the PDP-8 family. Instruction words are organized as follows: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| | | | | | | op |i|z| addr | op - the opcode. i - the indirect bit (0 = direct, 1 = indirect). z - the page bit (0 = page zero, 1 = current page). addr - the word in page. The top 5 bits of the 12 bit program counter give the current page, and memory addressing is also complicated by the fact that absolute memory locations 8 through 15 are incrememted prior to use when used for indirect addressing. These locations are called the auto-index registers (despite the fact that they are in memory), and they allow the formulation of very tightly coded array operations. The basic instructions are: 000 - AND - and operand with AC. 001 - TAD - add operand to (a 13 bit value). 010 - ISZ - increment operand and skip if result is zero. 011 - DCA - deposit AC in memory and clear AC. 100 - JMS - jump to subroutine. 101 - JMP - jump. 110 - IOT - input/output transfer. 111 - OPR - microcoded operations. The ISZ and other skip instructions conditionally skip the next instruction in sequence. The subroutine calling sequence involves putting the return address in relative word zero of the subroutine, with execution starting with relative word one. Return from subroutine is done with an indirect jump through the return address. Subroutines frequently increment their return addresses to index through inline parameter lists or to provide return codes by conditionally skipping the next instruction. The IOT instruction has the following form: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |1|1|0|_|_|_|_|_|_|t|c|s| | | | | | | device | op | The IOT instruction specifies one of 8 operations on one of 64 devices; typically (but not universally), each bit of the op field evokes an operation as follows: If the s bit is set, the instruction causes a skip if the device is ready, if the c bit is set, the device ready status is reset and, for some devices, AC is also cleared, and if the t bit is set, data is either ored with AC or output from AC to the device. IOT instructions may be used to initiate data break transfers from block devices such as disk or tape. The term "data break" was, for years, DEC's preferred term for cycle-stealing direct-memory- access data transfers. Some CPU functions are accessed only by IOT instructions. For example, interrupt enable and disable are IOT instructions, as are instructions controlling the optional memory management unit that is needed to address more than 4K words. A wide variety of operations are available through the OPR microcoded instructions: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Group 1 |1|1|1|0|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| 1 - CLA - clear AC 1 - CLL - clear the L bit 1 - CMA - ones complement AC 1 - CML - complement L bit 1 - IAC - increment 1 0 0 - RAR - rotate right 0 1 0 - RAL - rotate left 1 0 1 - RTR - rotate right twice 0 1 1 - RTL - rotate left twice In general, the above operations can be combined by oring the bit patterns for the desired operations into a single instruction. If none of the bits are set, the result is the NOP instruction. When these operations are combined, they operate top to bottom in the order shown above. The exception to this is that IAC cannot be combined with the rotate operations on some models, and attempts to combine rotate operations have different effects from one model to another (for example, on the PDP-8/E, the rotate code 001 means swap 6 bit bytes in the accumulator, while previous models took this to mean something like "shift neither left nor right 2 bits"). _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Group 2 |1|1|1|1|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|0| 1 0 - SMA - skip on AC < 0 \ 1 0 - SZA - skip on AC = 0 > or 1 0 - SNL - skip on L /= 0 / 0 0 0 1 - SKP - skip unconditionally 1 1 - SPA - skip on AC >= 0 \ 1 1 - SNA - skip on AC /= 0 > and 1 1 - SZL - skip on L = 0 / 1 - CLA - clear AC 1 - OSR - or switches with AC 1 - HLT - halt The above operations may be combined by oring them together, except that there are two distinct incompatible groups of skip instructions. When combined, SMA, SZA and SNL, skip if one or the other of the indicated conditions are true, while SPA, SNA and SZL skip if all of the indicated conditions are true (logical and). When combined, these operate top to bottom in the order shown; thus, the accumulator may be tested and then cleared. Setting the halt bit in a skip instruction is a crude but useful way to set a breakpoint for front-panel debugging. If none of the bits are set, the result is an alternative form of no-op. A third group of operate microinstructions (with a 1 in the least significant bit) deals with the optional extended arithmetic element to allow such things as hardware multiply and divide, 24 bit shift operations, and normalize. These operations involve an additional data register, MQ or multiplier quotient, and a small step count register. On the PDP-8/E and successors, MQ and the instructions for loading and storing it were always present, even when the EAE was absent, and the EAE was extended to provide a useful variety of 24 bit arithmetic operations. What does PDP-8 assembly language look like? Here is an example: START, CLA CLL / Clear everything TAD X / Load X AND I Y / And with the value pointed to by Y DCA X / Store in X HLT / Halt X, 1 / A variable Y, 7 / A pointer Note that labels are terminated by a comma, and comments are separated from the code by a slash. There are no fixed fields or column restrictions. The "CLA CLL" instruction on the first line is an example of the microcoding of two of the Group 1 operate instructions. CLA alone has the code 7200 (octal), while CLL has the code 7100; combining these as "CLA CLL" produces 7300, the instruction to clear both AC and the link bit. As a general rule, except when memory reference instructions are involved, the assembler simply ors together the values of all blank separated fields between the label and comment. Indirection is indicated by the special symbol I in the operand field, as in the third line of the example. The typical PDP-8 assembler has no explicit notation to distinguish between page zero and current page addresses. Instead, the assembler is expected to note the page holding the operand and automatically generate the appropriate mode. If the operand is neither in the current page nor page zero, some assemblers will raise an error, others will automatically generate an indirect pointer to the off-page operand (This feature should be avoided when it is available). Note, in the final two lines of the example, that there is no "define constant" pseudo-operation. Instead, where a constant is to be assembled into memory, the constant takes the place of the op-code field. The PDP-8 has no immediate addressing mode, but the assemblers provide a mechanism to allow the programmer to ignore this lack: TAD (3) / add 3, from memory on the current page. TAD [5] / add 5, from memory on page zero. JMP I (LAB) / jump indirect through the address of LAB. The assembler automatically fills the end of each page with constants defined in this way that have been accumulated during the assembly of that page. Arithmetic is allowed in operand fields and constant definitions, but expressions are evaluated in strict left-to-right order, as shown below: TAD X+1 / add the contents of the location after X. TAD (X-1) / add the address of the location before X. Other operators allowed included and (&), or (!), multiply (^) and divide (%). Generally, identifiers are not limited in length, but only the first 6 characters are significant. All numeric constants are in octal, unless a DECIMAL pseudo-op has been used to change number base (change back with the OCTAL pseudo-op). Other assembly language features are illustrated below: / Comments may stand on lines by themselves / Blank lines are allowed *200 / Set the assembly origin to 200 (octal) NL0002= CLA CLL CML RTL / Define new opcode NL0002. NL0002 / Use new opcode (load 0002 in AC) JMP .-1 / Jump to the previous instruction X1= 10 / Define X1 (an auto-index register address) TAD I X1 / Use autoindex register 1 IAC; RAL / Multiple instructions on one line $ / End of assembly The assembly file ends with a line containing a $ (dollar sign) not in a comment field. What different PDP-8 models were made? The following basic models of the PDP-8 were sold by DEC: MODEL DATES SALES COST TECHNOLOGY COMPATABILITY PDP-5 63-65 Transistor Limited PDP-8 65-68 >1000 <$100K Transistor Full LINC-8 66-69 153 $38500 Transistor Full (1) PDP-8/S 67? >1000? <$10K Transistor Limited and slow! PDP-8/I 68? >2000? <$100K TTL Full PDP-8/L 68? >2000? <$100K TTL Full (2) PDP-12 69-71 3500 <$100K TTL Full (3) PDP-8/E 70-78 >10K? $7390 TTL MSI Omnibus Full (4) PDP-8/F 73-78? >10K? <$7K TTL MSI Omnibus Full (CPU from 8/E) PDP-8/M 73-78? >10K? <$7K TTL MSI Omnibus Full (an OEM 8/F) PDP-8/A 75-84? >10K? <$7K TTL LSI Omnibus Full (new CPU or 8/E) VT78 78-80 > ? Microprocessor Full (Intersil IM6100) Dm I (5)80-84 Microprocessor Full (Intersil IM6120) Dm II 82-86 Microprocessor Full (IM6120) Dm III 84-90 Microprocessor Full Dm III+ 85-90 Microprocessor Full (6) Notes (1) The LINC-8 combined a modified PDP-8 with a Laboratory Instrumentation Control Computer (developed at Lincoln Labs in the early 1960s). This had a full front panel for each, so it looked very impressive. (2) The PDP-8/L was intended as a scaled down version of the PDP-8/I, but eventually, a full range of memory upgrade options were eventually sold. (3) The PDP-12 was originally designated the LINC-8/I; it was a follow-on to the LINC-8; it had the most impressive standard control panel of any PDP-8. (4) The PDP-8/E is considered by many to be the definitive PDP-8. If the PDP-8 was the model-T of the computer industry, perhaps the PDP-8/E was the model-A. (5) Dm stands for DECmate. (6) The total sales figure for the PDP-8 family is estimated at over 300,000 machines. Over 8500 of these were sold prior to 1970. When possible, the costs given above are for a minimal system consisting of 4K of main memory, a console teletype, and the minimal software needed to use the machine (FOCAL, BASIC, or a paper-tape based assembler). Additional information on costs and production is needed! The above list does not include many PDP-8 variants sold by DEC to meet the needs of various special users. For example, the Industrial-8 was really just a PDP-8/E with a different nameplate and color scheme. Burger King had thousands of PDP-8/M based point-of-sale systems with no standard peripherals. In addition, DEC made many peripheral controllers for the PDP-11 and PDP-15 that used IM6100 microprocessors. The following PDP-8 compatible or semi-compatible machines were made and sold by others; very little is known about many of these: MODEL DATE MAKER, NOTES MP-12 6? Fabritek TPA 68? Hungarian, possibly a DEC PDP-8/L in drag DCC-112 70-71 Digital Computer Controls DCC-112H 71 Digital Computer Controls 6100 Sampler 7? Intersil, their IM6100 promotional kit Intercept 7? Intersil, based on IM6100 Intercept Jr 7? Intersil, based on IM6100 SBC-8 84-88 CESI, Based on IM6120, SCSI bus Where can I get a PDP-8 today? The CESI machine may still be on the market, for a high price, but generally, you can't buy a new PDP-8 anymore. There are quite a few PDP-8 machines to be found in odd places on the used equipment market. They were widely incorporated into products such as computer controlled machine tools, X-ray diffraction machines, and other industrial and lab equipment. Many of them were sold under the EduSystem marketing program to public schools and universities, and others were used to control laboratory instrumentation. Reuters bought the tail end of the Omnibus based production run. If you can't get real hardware, you can get emulators. Over the years, many PDP-8 emulators have been written; the best of these are indistinguishable from the real machine from a software prespective, and on a modern high-speed RISC platform, these frequently outperform the hardware they are emulating. It is worth noting that the PDP-8, when it was introduced in 1965, was about as fast as was practical with the logic technology used at the time. The PDP-8/E was the last attempt at making a faster PDP-8, and it was about as fast as the core memory then available could handle without interleaving or other tricks. Where can I get PDP-8 documentation? The 1973 Introduction to Programming was probably DEC's definitive manual for this family, but it is out of print, and DEC was in the habit of printing much of their documentation on newsprint with paperback bindings, which is to say, surviving copies tend to be yellow and brittle. DEC distributed huge numbers of catalogs and programming handbooks in this inexpensive paperback format, and these circulate widely on the second-hand market. When research laboratories and electronics shops are being cleaned out, it is still common to find a few dusty, yellowed copies of these books being thrown in the trash. Maintenance manuals are harder to find, but more valuable. Generally, you'll need to find someone who's willing to photocopy one of the few surviving copies. Fortunately, DEC has been friendly to collectors, granting fairly broad letters of permission to reprint obsolete documentation, and the network makes if fairly easy to find someone who has the documentation you need and can get copies. What operating systems were written for the PDP-8? A punched paper-tape library of stand-alone programs was commonly used with the smallest (diskless and tapeless) configurations from the beginning up through the late 1970's. Many paper tapes from this library survive to the present at various sites! The minimum configuration expected by these tapes is a CPU with 4K memory, and a teletype ASR 33 with paper tape reader and punch. The DECtape Library System was an early DECtape oriented save and restore system that allowed a reel of tape to hold a directory of named files that could be loaded and run on a 4K system. Eventually, this supported a very limited tape-based text editor for on-line program development. This did not use the DECtape's block addressable character; the software was based on minimal ports of the paper-tape based software described above. The 4K Disk Monitor System provided slightly better facilities. This supported on-line program development and it worked with any device that supported 129 word blocks (DECtape, the DF32 disk, or the RF08 disk). MS/8 or the R-L Monitor System, developed starting in 1966 and submitted to DECUS in 1970. This was a disk oriented system, faster than the above, with tricks to make it run quickly on tape based systems. POLY BASIC, a BASIC only system submitted to DECUS and later sold by DEC as part of its EduSystem marketing program. P?S/8, developed starting in 1971 from an MS/8 foundation. Runs on minimal PDP-8 configurations, supports device semi-independant I/O and a file system on a random-access device, including DECtape. P?S/8 runs compatably on most PDP-8 machines including DECmates, excepting only the PDP-8/S and PDP-5. P?S/8 is still being developed! OS/8, developed in parallel with P?S/8, became the main PDP-8 programming environment sold by DEC. The minimum configuration required was 8K words and a random-access device to hold the system. For some devices, OS/8 requires 12K. There are a large number of OS/8 versions that are not quite portable across various subsets of the PDP-8 family. TSS/8 was developed in 1968 as a timesharing system. It required a minimum of 12K words of memory and a swapping device. It was the standard operating system on the EduSystem 50 which was sold to many small colleges and large public school systems. Each user gets a virtual 4K PDP-8; many of the utilities users ran on these virtual machines were only slight modifications utilities from the Disk Monitor System. Other timesharing systems developed for the PDP-8 include MULTI-8, ETOS (which required special hardware), MULTOS, and OMNI-8; these were similar to TSS/8, and by the mid 1970's, many of these were true virtual machine operating systems in the same spirit as IBM's VM-370. All are able to support OS/8 running on a 32K virtual PDP-8 assigned to each user. Some could support multiple user operating systems, others required OS/8 as the user system. CAPS-8 was a cassette based operating system supporting PAL and BASIC. There are OS/8 utilities to manipulate CAPS-8 cassettes, and the file format on cassette is compatible with a PDP-11 based system called CAPS-11. WPS was DEC's word processing system that was widely used on the 1980's vintage machines with a special WPS keycaps replacing the standard keycaps on the keyboard. This was written in the 1970's. COS-310, DEC's commercial operating system for the PDP-8, supported the DIBOL language. COS-310 was a derivative of OS/8, but with a new text file format. It maintains only very limited compatibility with OS/8. What programming languages are supported on the PDP-8 The PAL family of assembly languages are as close to a standard assembly language as can be found for the PDP-8. These produce absolute object code and versions of PAL will run on minimally configured machines (but with a small symbol table). MACRO-8 was DEC's first macro assembly language for the PDP-8, but it was never used outside the paper-tape environment. MACREL and SABR are assembly languages that produce relocatable output. SABR is the final pass for the ALICS II FORTRAN compiler, and MACREL was developed in (unfulfilled) anticipation of similar use. There was also RALF, the relocatable assembler supporting RTPS FORTRAN, and FLAP, an alternative assembler for RTPS FORTRAN producing absolute binary code. Both SABR and RALF/FALP are quirky assemblers that barely handle their intended applications. A subset of FORTRAN was supported on both the PDP-5 and the original PDP-8. Surviving documentation describes a DEC compiler from 1964 and a compiler written by Information Control Systems from 1968. The latter, ALICS II FORTRAN, was originally a paper tape based compiler, but it forms the basis of the OS/8 8K FORTRAN compiler. RTPS FORTRAN required 8K and a floating point processor; it had real-time extensions and was a full implementation of FORTRAN IV (also known as ANSI FORTRAN 66). OS/8 F4 is RTPS FORTRAN stripped of the requirement for hardware floating point (if the hardware is missing, it uses software emulation). FOCAL, an interpretive language comparable to BASIC was available on all models of the family, including the PDP-5 and PDP-8/S. Varsions of FOCAL run under PS/8, P?S/8 and other systems. BASIC was also available, and was widely used on PDP-8 systems sold under the EduSystem marketing program. A paper-tape version was available that ran in 4K, there were versions that ran under OS/8 and TSS/8, and there was an 8K stand-alone time-sharing version. DIBOL was DEC's attempt at competing with COBOL in the commercial arena. It was originally implemented under MS/8 but most versions were sold to run under the COS operating system. Algol was available from a fairly early date. At least two Pascal compilers were developed for the PDP-8. One was a Pascal-S interpreter, written in assembler, the other was a Pascal-P compiler with a P-code interpreter written in assembler. At least two LISP interpreters were written for the PDP-8; one runs in 4K, the other can use up to 16K. TECO, the text editor, is available, and is also a general purpose language, and someone is working on a PDP-8 C. Where can I get PDP-8 software? DECUS, the DEC User Society, is still alive and well, and their submission form still lists PAL-8 and FOCAL as languages in which they accept submissions! There is a young but growing FTPable archive of PDP-8 software at ftp.telebit.com in directory /pub/pdp8. Where can I get additional information? The file WHAT-IS-A-PDP8, by Charles Lasner contains considerable additional information; this file is included in the FTPable archive cited above. This file gives details of every model of the PDP-8, including the small quirks and incompatabilities that (to be generous) allow software to determine which model it is running on. These quirks also make it all too easy for careless programmers to write almost portable software with very obscure bugs. The mailing list pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu reaches a number of PDP-8 owners and users, not all of whom have USENET feeds. The USENET newsgroup alt.sys.pdp8 is fairly new, but someday, the newsgroup and mailing list will be gatewayed to each other. Many "archival" books have included fairly complete descriptions of the PDP-8; among them, "Computer Architecture, Readings and Examples" by Gordon Bell and Allen Newell is among the most complete (and difficult to read). Considering Bell's role in the design of the PDP-8 and the history of DEC, the description in this book should be accurate! What use is a PDP-8 today? What use is a Model T today? Collectors of both come in the same basic classes. First, there are antiquarians who keep an old one in the garage, polished and restored to new condition but hardly ever used. Once a year, they warm it up and use it, just to prove that it still works, but they don't have much practical use. In the second class are those who find old machines and soup them up, replacing major parts to make a hotrod that only looks like the original from the outside, or keeping the old mechanism and putting it to uses that were never intended. Some PDP-8 owners, for example, are building PDP-8 systems with modern SCSI disk interfaces! Last, there are the old folks who still use their old machines for their intended purposes long after any sane economic analysis would recommend such use. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and if it can be fixed, why bother replacing it? Both Model T Fords and the classic PDP-8 machines are simple enough that end users can maintain and repair them indefinitely. All you need to keep a vintage -8 running are a stock of inexpensive silicon diodes and a stock of 2N3639B or better, 2N3640 transistors. Finally, the PDP-8 is such a minimal machine that it is an excellent introduction to how computers really work. Over the years, many students have built complete working PDP-8 systems from scratch as lab projects, and the I/O environment on a PDP-8 is simple enough that it is a very appropriate environment for learning operating system programming techniques. From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!vallista.eff.org!user Fri Nov 13 18:51:27 EST 1992 Article: 72 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!vallista.eff.org!user From: efh@eff.org (Ed Hardebeck) Subject: Re: New owner of a PDP-8e Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp8 Sender: usenet@eff.org (NNTP News Poster) Nntp-Posting-Host: vallista.eff.org Organization: ON Technology References: <1992Oct27.102532.60147@cc.usu.edu> <1992Oct27.194507.21093@news.uiowa.edu> <1992Oct28.235258.4581@s1.gov> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:50:12 GMT Lines: 45 In article <1992Oct28.235258.4581@s1.gov>, jtk@s1.gov (Jordin Kare) wrote: > Migawd! 30 years of PDP-5's! You might check with the MIT Electronics > Research Society, room 20B119 (?) at MIT. They used to have a PDP-5 > (I know because I rebuilt it, long ago in my college days) and may > well either still have it or know where it went. Geoff Rochat would > be the person to ask. > > Jordin Kare > -- > > Jordin Kare jtk@s1.gov 510-426-0363 Hi Jordin! You might recall that you (representing ERS) sold that PDP-5 to me in 1979 for $25. I had it running for quite a while, I remember that due to corrosion on the System Module contacts sometimes an accumulator bit would get "stuck". You could usually tell which bit by the lights on the front panel, then go into the back, count over to the right module (there were 12 for the accumulator, one for each bit) and wiggle it a little, then hit Continue and go on. (Of course the program would still be fine in core, that would stay even between power cycles). We had it connected to the original MIT PDP-1 3340(?) display (*the*original Spacewar display) which I had also acquired. We hacked up a version of Munching Squares for the 5 and the 3340 scope. I believe that after I moved my roomates donated the 5 to the Computer Museum sometime in the mid '80s. There was a complete set of documentation (which in those days included full schematics and a tutorial on the diode-capacitor logic (0 and -3 volt logic levels) used in the System Modules). The Computer Museum had a 5 previous to this, so they should have at least two now. Ed Hardebeck efh@eff.org From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!rpi!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!mizar.cc.umanitoba.ca!rflukes Sat Nov 14 18:43:35 EST 1992 Article: 73 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!rpi!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!mizar.cc.umanitoba.ca!rflukes From: rflukes@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Richard F. Lukes) Subject: WT/78 and LQP01 FOR SALE Message-ID: Sender: news@ccu.umanitoba.ca Nntp-Posting-Host: ccu.umanitoba.ca Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada Distribution: na Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 18:42:26 GMT Lines: 26 I am running short of basement space so I am considering selling some of my WT/78 pdp8-compatible computer systems. I will consider selling pieces separately or as a package: 2 - WT/78 pdp8-compatible CPU in a VT52-like terminal. 2 - LQP01 (Diablo HyTYPE II) daisywheel printers 1 - power supply for above printer 2 - cables for interconnecting LQP01 to WT/78 CPU 2 - cables for interconnecting RX01/RX02 to WT/78 CPU All items are in excellent working condition. UPS shipping of these items is no problem, however I will consider selling just the WT/78 motherboard, power supply and keyboard, if someone wants to upgrade their VT52... Looking for a good home for these units, so I'll take just about anything in exchange. Thanks, Rich -- Richard F. Lukes rflukes@ccu.UManitoba.CA Computer Science Department (or rflukes@ccm.UManitoba.CA) University of Manitoba WORK: (204)-474-8696 HOME: (204)-257-6701 From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon Sat Nov 14 18:45:39 EST 1992 Article: 74 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!rochester!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news.harvard.edu!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon From: cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: 14 Nov 92 06:10:03 GMT Organization: Vpnet Public Access Lines: 53 I have a pdp8/e. Not just _any_ pdp8/e, either. This is the unit that was used to teach computer science to the students of York High School in Elmhurst, IL. The unit that introduced me (and many others) to computers. (One of the others was Sam Dicker, co-developer of the popular arcade game Defender. You out there, Sam?) In its prime, this machine ran BASIC timeshared between 4 ASR-33s, in 12K of core. I graduated from York in '76, and they retired my old friend pidipity a few years later. I was in the Navy by then, and while on leave at home I went back to York and bought the computer, an ASR-33, and every scrap of paper tape they had in the district warehouse. (I've heard of stuff like tape drives and even disk drives for the pdp family, but REAL MEN don't use such things! :-) I took the machine back to the ship, (this machine later saw duty in the Persian Gulf and the USSR!) and ordered all the manuals from DEC. These cost me about $400 at the time, but I have volumes 1, 2, and 3 of the e/f/m Maintenance manual, the 8/e Illustrated Parts Breakdown, and the pdp8/e Engineering Drawings. Also the 1979 edition of the PDP-8 Product Summary Catalog. All originals. I have a third- or fourth-generation photocopy of most (I think) of the ASR-33 Teletype schematics. (Wanna hear something real scary? I actually understand at least half of what goes on inside an ASR-33. I'd like to see some hotshot QA guy run his reliability prediction formulae on one of these puppies...) I have most of the MAINDEC pdp-8 processor tests on paper tape -- original DEC tapes. (No, not DECTAPES) My machine has 3 fields of core installed. Two of these are working; the third has one failed inhibit driver. Gotta fix that one of these days... I have three extra M8650 current loop interface boards. They were working in 1979 when I unplugged them. Supplies? I've got a _lot_ of blank 1" paper tape. A couple of cases of DEC prefolded gray PDP tape, a bunch of yellow oiled rolls, and a little pink, green, and black. I'd like to have: A copy of BASIC that works. I have my EDUSYSTEM-20 BASIC tape from the goodle days, but it doesn't run. I need several switch handles for the front panel (doesn't everybody?) I'd be interested in a source for ASR-33 ribbons and paper. And all of the plastic associated with the air filters in the desktop case has deteriorated, so if someone has a spare (!) case floating around... -- ---------------------------------------------------- Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!gumby!wupost!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony Sat Nov 14 18:46:22 EST 1992 Article: 75 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu comp.sys.hp48:6085 alt.sys.pdp8:75 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!gumby!wupost!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp48,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Omnibus 48 Date: 14 Nov 1992 20:27:06 GMT Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1e3neqINN4je@uwm.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4 In article flavio@cflav.sublink.org (Flavio Casetta) writes: >the spreadsheet developed at ForCALC has a name. >It will be called OMNIBUS since it is worth of using >by everybody for the most different purposes. > >Of course this mark has been registered. DEC's OMNIBUS trademark for one of the PDP-8 minicomputer buses is no longer valid? Even if it isn't, are you sure you want to give your software the same name as some DEC hardware? DEC's trademark was registered as late as 1977 (the most recent book I've got). PDP-8 based systems were only discontinued a couple years ago. Of course, a product that allows an HP-48SX to hook up to an OMNIBUS computer would be quite valuable. A 48 might be the most powerful peripheral that a PDP-8 could have :-). -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!news.uiowa.edu!news Mon Nov 16 03:00:17 EST 1992 Article: 76 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1992Nov16.022626.22158@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:26:26 GMT References: <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us> Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 55 >From article <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us>, by cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka): > I have a pdp8/e. Me too, but not with any emotional connections. > > I have a third- or fourth-generation photocopy of most (I think) of > the ASR-33 Teletype schematics. I have originals of the schematics and maintenance manual. > I have three extra M8650 current loop interface boards. I have a pile of these too -- but note, the 8650 can do RS232 as well as current loop! You can hook modern terminals to them at up to 2400 baud, and even faster if you use jumpers to points not advertised in the manual. Read the extended comments in the board schematics for the M8650 to find out how to make the RS232 cable and how to jumper for higher speeds. > Supplies? I've got a _lot_ of blank 1" paper tape. I got cases and cased of oiled fanfold and roll tape, mostly black, but also a case of dark grey. No DEC original tape, though. > I'd like to have: > A copy of BASIC that works. I have my EDUSYSTEM-20 BASIC tape from > the goodle days, but it doesn't run. I have the EDUSYSTEM-30 user's guide (mark-sense batch BASIC), The EDUSYSTEM-10 user's guide (basic, but minimal), the EDUSYSTEM Produce Catalog, including an undated letter offering price quotes, circa 1971, and a copy of the Educational Program Index from the same era. All are DEC originals. Sorry I don't have the software itself. > I need several switch handles > for the front panel (doesn't everybody?) I don't know about everybody, but one "goldenrod" handle would do me a world of good. (Goldenrod is the official DEC name for the yellow color that goes opposite terra cotta on the PDP-8/E front panel). > I'd be interested in a > source for ASR-33 ribbons and paper. I think it's a standard kind of cloth ribbon. If worse comes to worse, the width of the ribbon is exactly standard, so al you have to do is wind a ribbon from whatever kind of spool you get onto the ASR33 spool. > And all of the plastic associated with the air filters in the > desktop case has deteriorated, Strip out the bad filters. If your air is dirty enough to need filtering, go to a furnace store and look at the filter media they have to offer. I've seen some "plastic" furnace filter material that's not too different from the DEC stuff, but thicker. I assume it'd work well enough if you can get it to fit in the path of the airflow. I've got a rack-mount system with no air filters (at least, none remaning) inside the rack. The top-of-rack fan still has a filter, though, but just about anything can be stuffed there. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Mon Nov 16 03:01:58 EST 1992 Article: 77 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov16.075942.16291@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov16.022626.22158@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:59:42 GMT In article <1992Nov16.022626.22158@news.uiowa.edu> jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: > I have originals of the schematics and maintenance manual. >> I have three extra M8650 current loop interface boards. > I have a pile of these too -- but note, the 8650 can do RS232 > as well as current loop! You can hook modern terminals to > them at up to 2400 baud, and even faster if you use jumpers > to points not advertised in the manual. Read the extended > comments in the board schematics for the M8650 to find out > how to make the RS232 cable and how to jumper for higher > speeds. The M8650 is current loop at 110 baud if the crystal is 14.418 Mhz. To make it do the other rates, you have to change the crystal or even the whole oscillator circuit to 19.6608 MHz, which is a fairly standard rate. Then the lowest baud rate is 150, not 110 baud. The schematics show that the original card was designated to go up to 1200 baud only using a set of neatly arranged split-lug jumpers, where one side of all of them is in common. Basically, you are picking off the proper divide-down output intio the next stage, etc. Then there was an ECO to add 2400 baud using another similar pair, but located some distance from the 150,300,600,1200 jumpers. But, if yo look at the schematic, there is the common run near the chip in the upper right hand corner of the card, and pins on that chip are for even faster outputs such as 4800, 9600, 19,200, 38,400, etc. and they only need a short jumper, although not "neat" or "official". You can also use the current-loop output for speeds faster than 110 baud, but only if you remove (at least one end of) an electrolytic capacitor being uses as a filter for the "dirty" input data of the tty commutator. When removed, the rate can easily go to 9600 baud current-loop if needed. On the KL8-JA card, a routine jumper change implements the same mod, but you have to unsolder it here. Also, note that the KL8E can go faster than the KL8-JA! Whether it's current-loop or RS-232 depends on the cable plugged in. There is a short designated current-loop connector that ends with a flat Mate'N'Lok connector to a DEC current-loop terminal, and it has a jumper to enable the current loop input on the module. If it's RS-232, then you have to use the BC01V or BC05C cables which implement an alternate jumper for the RS-232 input convertor. The outputs are both driven so there is no need for an output control jumper. >> I'd be interested in a >> source for ASR-33 ribbons and paper. > I think it's a standard kind of cloth ribbon. If worse comes > to worse, the width of the ribbon is exactly standard, so al > you have to do is wind a ribbon from whatever kind of spool > you get onto the ASR33 spool. It's a standard ribbon for a rather ancient standard typewriter. >> And all of the plastic associated with the air filters in the >> desktop case has deteriorated, > Strip out the bad filters. If your air is dirty enough to > need filtering, go to a furnace store and look at the filter > media they have to offer. I've seen some "plastic" furnace > filter material that's not too different from the DEC stuff, > but thicker. I assume it'd work well enough if you can get > it to fit in the path of the airflow. I've got a rack-mount > system with no air filters (at least, none remaning) inside > the rack. The top-of-rack fan still has a filter, though, > but just about anything can be stuffed there. That urethane foam can be deadly when it flakes apart; better to vacuum it all away, and go bare, but air conditioner filter is essentially the same stuff, with perhaps a different "weave" and effective density, etc. cjl From news.columbia.edu!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!paulp Mon Nov 16 23:17:40 EST 1992 Article: 78 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!paulp From: paulp@uts.amdahl.com (Paul Popelka) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Schematics for an M8330 board? Message-ID: <71yU03KebbFk00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> Date: 16 Nov 92 17:55:13 GMT Distribution: na Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA Lines: 21 Hi, I just bought a pdp 8/m and I'm trying to get it working. When I got it home I discovered that someone had put the M8330 timing generator module in backwards and, it looks like they then powered it up. This fried one 7401 chip. I'm going to replace it, but I assume other chips will be bad too. So, to find the rest of the bad chips I probably will need a schematic for this board, and maybe others. Does anyone out there know where I can get a copy of the schematic (for the M8330 or better yet the whole machine)? Has anyone had any experience with what putting a board in backwards can do to the rest of the machine? Thanks, Paul paulp@sde.uts.amdahl.com From news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon Mon Nov 16 23:18:35 EST 1992 Article: 79 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon From: cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov16.175752.21890@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: Vpnet Public Access References: <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov16.022626.22158@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:57:52 GMT Lines: 23 jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) writes: > ... (Some good thoughts and a little commiseration) ... > Strip out the bad filters. If your air is dirty enough to > need filtering, go to a furnace store and look at the filter > media they have to offer. I've seen some "plastic" furnace > filter material that's not too different from the DEC stuff, > but thicker. I assume it'd work well enough if you can get > it to fit in the path of the airflow. I've got a rack-mount > system with no air filters (at least, none remaning) inside > the rack. The top-of-rack fan still has a filter, though, > but just about anything can be stuffed there. Unfortunately, my problem is that the whole filter assembly is shot. I'm less concerned about filtering the air than restoring the case. The sheet metal is showing some rust but can be repainted. All those snap-in plastic things are broken, and it looks pretty sad. (Works great, though -- just like you'd expect from an 8/e :-) -- ---------------------------------------------------- Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Mon Nov 16 23:19:20 EST 1992 Article: 80 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Schematics for an M8330 board? Message-ID: <1992Nov17.041733.14022@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <71yU03KebbFk00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> Distribution: na Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:17:33 GMT In article <71yU03KebbFk00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> paulp@uts.amdahl.com (Paul Popelka) writes: > >Hi, > >I just bought a pdp 8/m and I'm trying to get it working. >When I got it home I discovered that someone had put the >M8330 timing generator module in backwards and, it looks >like they then powered it up. This fried one 7401 chip. >I'm going to replace it, but I assume other chips will >be bad too. > >So, to find the rest of the bad chips I probably will need >a schematic for this board, and maybe others. Does anyone >out there know where I can get a copy of the schematic (for >the M8330 or better yet the whole machine)? Lotsa readers have schematics of the card, for at least one viable revision of the card. I have a general question about ECO's to the CPU cards to address to the those more familiar with newer logic families: One of the major upgrades to the CPU cards involves a wholesale upgrade of chips generally from 74H to pin-compatible 74S, and minimally changing some of the bypass caps to larger values. Apparently this tightens up some buss timing critical to operation in long busses, etc. My understanding of Schottky logic is that S series chips are rather gross, in that they generate lots of switching current that can induce unwanted signals in lead runs, that can cause unreliable results, etc. So, is the etch of the affected boards "worthy" of this upgrade, or is doing so sort-of trading in one form of unreliability for another? I have seen boards with elaborate grounding techniques when S chips were used, and these caps are really rather "dinky" compared to that, and even have leads longer than necessary, as compared to the usual glass caps that resemble diodes (with smaller capacitance values; I think .01 as compared to .25.) An additional question: Is perhaps a newer logic family a better alternative? Can someone post all of the compatible variants so we can get a feel for what is suitable/not suitable? I am aware of: Plain 74xx 74L 74H 74S 74LS 74ALS 74C 74HCT 74F Someone suggested that 74F would be the best improvement, and would be better than 74S for the upgrade of these cards. Any opinions, please? Incidentally, for certain 74H chips, there is apparently no substitute! In the specific case of 7401 and 7400, the 74H01 and 74H00 are *NOT* pin- compatible! Do the newer logic families tend to follow the regular 74xx chips or the 74H chips relative to these discrepancies? Related topics: SP chips were widely used in these cards as bus drivers/receivers. The SP-380 is an inverting bus receiver, which was "upgraded" to the 8640 by Signetics, and is a common Q-bus receiver chip. However, at least the following chips are "orphaned" and need sources of replacement: SP-314 is an 8-input AND gate (NAND?) to decode the bus for device selector applications. All inputs are conditioned as in 8640 SP-384 is pin-compatible with SP-380, but it is *non*-inverting. (One does an OR function of two inputs, so the other does an AND (NAND?) of them.) Less often seen, but occasionally needed are: SP-317 and SP-391, but I don't remember the functionality. Additionally, most output drivers where originally selected 7401 chips noted by a leading select digit of 9 (97401). This was upgraded to the 8881, which is also a popular Q-bus driver. In fact, there is an additional chip used as a bidirectional driver called 8641, that combines some of the functionality of both the 8881 and 8640. It's used is the MM-8AB memory, and many Q-bus cards. An additional problem: The SP-384 is involved in a CPU upgrade: the gradeout digit specified internal to DEC was 5, thus the chips read 5384. But this turns out to be insufficient if the application includes certain fast interfaces such as the RK8E, and thus requires upgrading the spec to 7384. How are we to get a decent supply of these chips? I personally will fund part of a "spares" store if someone can locate a vendor for them. I would assume that the other chips, which are mostly standard 74xx chips except for the designer series (see below) and the stated SP and related chips, are readily available or can be substituted by one of the newer types directly. Designer series: Virtually all of the chips that start with the digit 8 are part of what was originally designated by Signetics as the "Designer Series" of chips. Mostly they are standard TTL compatible with 74xx, but the functionality is different, often allowing for a more sensible pin arrangement relative to the actual way a chip gets used (avoiding land runs under chips, etc. or plate-through holes, etc), or for more functionality in the package, such as a shift register that has buss-driver worthy outputs or inputs, etc. Most of the chips have numbers like DS 82xx. Note the "DS" in the front of the chip numbers. This causes confusion at most electronics vendors because they are assuming these are Intel support chips' numbers, since the 4 digits are identical (such as DS 8272 as opposed to 8272). So, we need an ongoing source of all of these problem chips to maintain the Omnibus boards. Some core memory boards use some obscure hybrid chips, that are mostly plane terminators, etc., and are essentially a DEC custom product, so if they break, you lose, but all of these other chips are products that were offered to the industry in a generic way, and it was probably reasonable for DEC to choose them for use in their designs. Clearly the concepts present in the chips (high-impedance input with hysteresis, low-leakage open-collector drivers, etc.) are what is in current usage, although likely in even more compact chip cases. Clearly, a new design for an Omnibus peripheral could be accomplished with fewer total chips in any design, but what of maintaining existing boards? > >Has anyone had any experience with what putting a board in >backwards can do to the rest of the machine? > The boards really don't fit backwards, so someone must have forced it. I do have experience with boards put in upside down! The middle board of the RK8E board set says on it "TOP" for a very good reason. It can be inserted upside down because it has 8 finger edges and no handles. A field circus guy failed to heed this and then turned on the 8/e. Sparks flew from the board, and eventually we say about 8-9 destroyed lands on the board. For those familiar with the RK board set, they use smaller than average land size, and it is quite a pain to remove chips from this board, even with a vacuum desolder. Most people elect to dyke the chips out and just remove the pins rather than risk ruining the plated-through holes. I eventually repaired such a card, using #30 wire-wrap wire as replacement runs for the destroyed wires. I replaced about a half-dozen chips before I got it to work. (Possibly a few were replaced in error, but you have to guess a little sometimes; the RK has a few operations that are hard to get to cycle to look at on a scope.) A power supply fuse was also blown (I think +15), but no other damage! cjl From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Tue Nov 17 03:49:33 EST 1992 Article: 81 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:33748 alt.sys.pdp8:81 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: What about a pdp-8? (was: value of a pdp-11,va) Message-ID: <1992Nov17.044826.14834@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov11.172715.6490@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> <1992Nov16.152944.28565@searchtech.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:48:26 GMT I am cross-posting this to alt.sys.pdp8 so you can get answers. cjl In article <1992Nov16.152944.28565@searchtech.com> johnb@searchtech.com (John Baldwin) writes: >In article <1992Nov11.172715.6490@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> > aduell@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tony Duell) writes: > >>Actually, the 11/45 has the purple front panel - similar to the 11/70's >>panel, except for 4 fewer address switches/lights, no 16/18/22 bit >>indicators, and a re-arrangement of the status lights. >> Far from being only suitable as a anchor, the 11/45 was actually faster >>than the 11/70 on some operationds, and equal speed on the others >>(assuming bipolar memory on the 45). > > > Great! Some PDP-11 owners still out there. > > Okay, I have a similar question. My new employer is trying to get > rid of a PDP-8. So far, they haven't set a price; they haven't even > decided whether to open up for bids or how they want to handle it. > To them, its just junk. I don't think it runs. What's it worth? > > PS: Anybody know much about restoring such a beast to operational > condition? :-) > > >-- >John Baldwin johnb@searchtech.com >Micromeritics, Inc. uupsi!srchtec!johnb >One Micromeritics Drive johnb@srchtec.uucp >Norcross, Georgia 30093-1877 USA voice: 1-(404)-662-3601 From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!incoming!scafati Wed Nov 18 05:28:44 EST 1992 Article: 82 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!incoming!scafati From: scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov17.161050.1022@mr.med.ge.com> Sender: scafati@incoming (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) Nntp-Posting-Host: incoming-gw Organization: GE Medical Systems References: <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 16:10:50 GMT Lines: 19 In article <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us>, cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) writes: |>(I've heard of stuff like tape |> drives and even disk drives for the pdp family, but REAL MEN don't use |> such things! :-) |> "REAL MEN" (and real women) don't use paper tape. They use front panels. |> -- |> ---------------------------------------------------- |> Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us |> Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! -- ________________________________________________________________________________ | The views expressed herein do not | Fear Victor-charles Scafati | necessarily represent the views of the | no scafati@mr.med.ge.com | author, let alone his employer or client | Art! ________________________________________________________________________________ From news.columbia.edu!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!yuma!news Wed Nov 18 05:29:11 EST 1992 Article: 83 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:33774 alt.sys.pdp8:83 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!yuma!news From: mm459504@longs.lance.colostate.edu Subject: Any need for a Ti-994a? Message-ID: Sender: news@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (News Account) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:47:07 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: allison105.halls.colostate.edu Organization: My Computer! Mine! Mine! Lines: 12 I've got a Ti-99/4a I use as a dust collector, paid $350.00 for it in May of '84 It sold in August of '84 for about $50.00 when Ti stopped making it. It never held the same interest after I got OOP working in it's ROM-Basic. It was kind of neat tho' When you loaded programs off tape, you could hear it throught the TV speaker. (Obviously by the time a program loaded however, you're eyes had already been irradiated out of your head) Mike From news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon Thu Nov 19 00:36:44 EST 1992 Article: 84 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon From: cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov18.041602.20897@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: Vpnet Public Access References: <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov17.161050.1022@mr.med.ge.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 04:16:02 GMT Lines: 13 scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) writes: >"REAL MEN" (and real women) don't use paper tape. They use front panels. Ah, yes... I remember the contests we used to have, seeing who could toggle in the RIM loader the fastest. (That's probably one of the reasons I need new switch handles :-) I don't remember the record time, but I used to be about average -- I'll time myself and see what it comes out to. -- ---------------------------------------------------- Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Thu Nov 19 00:37:25 EST 1992 Article: 85 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!news.iastate.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Report of 8/E for sale Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1992Nov18.144033.2518@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:40:33 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA A friend of mine from the University of California at Riverside has sent the following report to me: < I have told you that there is a whole PDP 8 forsale here at the < UCR surplus eqpt sale, havnt I? < It has a 9 track, and a removable disk pack, plus some other < stuff. They are asking 25,000 for the whole thing, but I have also < gotten stuff they were asking 2,000 for 200, so I am sure they would < be willing to bargan. < It is quite a large piece of eqpt, it is over 6 feet tall, and < I am sure it is also quite heavy. But, I also suspect that if you < got it all that would be needed to make it go is to give it power. I gather that the UCR surplus outlet has a sale the first Tuesday of every month, and I'd lay even odds that the prices they list are the original purchase prices that the UCR paid for the equipment when new. Technically, their sales are by auction, and I suspect that the minimum bid they'll accept drops from month to month until they get rid of a piece of equipment. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!incoming!scafati Thu Nov 19 00:37:44 EST 1992 Article: 86 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!incoming!scafati From: scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> Sender: scafati@incoming (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) Nntp-Posting-Host: incoming-gw Organization: GE Medical Systems References: <1992Nov14.061003.1247@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov17.161050.1022@mr.med.ge.com> <1992Nov18.041602.20897@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 16:57:58 GMT Lines: 29 In article <1992Nov18.041602.20897@vpnet.chi.il.us>, cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) writes: |> scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) writes: |> >"REAL MEN" (and real women) don't use paper tape. They use front panels. |> |> Ah, yes... I remember the contests we used to have, seeing who could |> toggle in the RIM loader the fastest. (That's probably one of the |> reasons I need new switch handles :-) I don't remember the record |> time, but I used to be about average -- I'll time myself and see what |> it comes out to. |> |> -- |> ---------------------------------------------------- |> Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us |> Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! Ah yes, 6016, 6011, 5027, 6016.... We used to compete on a PDP8/I which had the smooth rocker switches rather than the toggle type. The rockers were far superior- you could kind of "flow" down the switches rather than flick up or down. I have a PDP8/L, but I'd really like an PDP8/I someday -- ________________________________________________________________________________ | The views expressed herein do not | Fear Victor-charles Scafati | necessarily represent the views of the | no scafati@mr.med.ge.com | author, let alone his employer or client | Art! ________________________________________________________________________________ From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!jeq Thu Nov 19 00:38:21 EST 1992 Article: 87 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!jeq From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist) Subject: Re: Report of 8/E for sale Message-ID: <1992Nov18.162707.8408@i88.isc.com> Sender: usenet@i88.isc.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: birdie.i88.isc.com Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL References: <1992Nov18.144033.2518@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:27:07 GMT Lines: 16 In article <1992Nov18.144033.2518@news.uiowa.edu> jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: >A friend of mine from the University of California at Riverside has >sent the following report to me: > >< I have told you that there is a whole PDP 8 forsale here at the >< UCR surplus eqpt sale, havnt I? >< It has a 9 track, and a removable disk pack, plus some other ... Uh, wouldn't that have been a 7-track tape? -- Jonathan E. Quist INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation jeq@i88.isc.com '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094 Naperville, IL There are many things a person should experience in a lifetime. Among them are an infant's first cry, and an infant's first laugh. From news.columbia.edu!rpi!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Thu Nov 19 00:38:48 EST 1992 Article: 88 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Re: Report of 8/E for sale Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1992Nov18.202852.8288@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:28:52 GMT References: <1992Nov18.162707.8408@i88.isc.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 16 >From article <1992Nov18.162707.8408@i88.isc.com>, by jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist): >>< It has a 9 track, and a removable disk pack, plus some other > > Uh, wouldn't that have been a 7-track tape? Why? As far as I can tell, the only reason DEC put any kind of tape other than DECtape on a PDP-8 was for industry compatible data exchange. For example, there's a mothballed 8/I in the chemistry department here at Iowa that has a 9 track tape drive and a DF32 disk -- the machine runs an X-ray diffraction machine, and the data it collects is shipped on mag-tape to a larger computer for analysis. The disk just holds system software and is not involved in data collection. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!jeq Thu Nov 19 01:52:04 EST 1992 Article: 89 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!jeq From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov18.194720.14719@i88.isc.com> Sender: usenet@i88.isc.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: birdie.i88.isc.com Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL References: <1992Nov17.161050.1022@mr.med.ge.com> <1992Nov18.041602.20897@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:47:20 GMT In article <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) writes: >In article <1992Nov18.041602.20897@vpnet.chi.il.us>, cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) writes: >|> scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) writes: >|> >"REAL MEN" (and real women) don't use paper tape. They use front panels. >|> >|> Ah, yes... I remember the contests we used to have, seeing who could >|> toggle in the RIM loader the fastest. (That's probably one of the >|> reasons I need new switch handles :-) I don't remember the record >|> time, but I used to be about average -- I'll time myself and see what >|> it comes out to. >|> >|> -- >|> ---------------------------------------------------- >|> Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us >|> Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! > >Ah yes, 6016, 6011, 5027, 6016.... We used to compete on a PDP8/I which >had the smooth rocker switches rather than the toggle type. The rockers >were far superior- you could kind of "flow" down the switches rather >than flick up or down. I have a PDP8/L, but I'd really like an PDP8/I >someday Yep - the 8/I was my favorite, even at the expense of a slightly slower instruction time than the other machines in the lab. (Someone had added pots to the system clocks - a couple times a year during PM they'd tune the clock speed up as fast as the processor could handle it, then back off a few percent.) Aside from the rocker switches, my favorite part was the full register display - made debugging that much easier. RIM loader? We never had to do that... Just toggle in the network bootstrap, then 7600, Load Address, Go. All the PDP-8's I worked with were on a star network, with a pair ("Network Central") at the hub running the disks. Years before anyone thought up the term "file server". And, of course, the first thing that the OS did when it booted was to load the bootstrap into all available extended memory - if you only had a minor crash, you could just select an alternate segment and boot from there. Question: Was the network part of a standard OS, or was it just something developed at Northwestern? (The hardware looked homemade. As I recall, it was a 40kword/sec network - add to that CRT terminals, instead of the usual ASR's - pretty nifty. Not to mention the system with extra hardware for doing 4-channel realtime music synthesis, or the one with the vectorscope display that did "Asteroids" years before the game hit the arcades...) My nomination for PDP-8.godhood: Mr. Rich Karhuse. Formerly head of the Northwestern CS Research Lab; last I heard, working for Bell Labs. I heard stories from several reliable sources that, upon discovering a bug in the network central systems, he would halt the machines from the front panel, toggle in the changes in memory and AC/L, then continue. (And then, of course, document the fix... :') From talking with him on numerous occaisions, I have no reason to doubt the stories. Rich, if you're out there, many thanks. The environment you provided was one of the single greatest influences on my professional skills. These kids today just don't know what they're missing. -- Jonathan E. Quist INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation jeq@i88.isc.com '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094 Naperville, IL There are many things a person should experience in a lifetime. Among them are an infant's first cry, and an infant's first laugh. From news.columbia.edu!rpi!batcomputer!reed!bob Thu Nov 19 01:52:39 EST 1992 Article: 90 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!batcomputer!reed!bob From: bob@reed.edu (Robert Ankeney) Subject: The good old days. Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:54:07 GMT Message-ID: <1992Nov18.235407.12864@reed.edu> Lines: 15 Gosh, this group reminds me of the good old days. I used to work at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI), the folks who brought you OMSI-FOCAL and other oddities. The machine they had there was a Straight/8 with a serial number of (if I recall correctly) 138, which replaced the original one they had that had a 2-digit number. One thing I was just remembering was a wonderful puzzle from way back when. It was a challenge to write a program that zeroed memory. It had to be written in the first 4K and would zero the entire 4K, including itself. So, if you're feeling bored, you might see if you can do it! Sadly, I don't remember any solution, but if I recall, the auto-increment registers at 10-17 might have been useful. Robert Ankeney From news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!aisun3.ai.uga.edu!mcovingt Thu Nov 19 01:52:50 EST 1992 Article: 91 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:33844 alt.sys.pdp8:91 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!aisun3.ai.uga.edu!mcovingt From: mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (Michael Covington) Subject: Re: Any need for a Ti-994a? Message-ID: <1992Nov19.052732.6165@athena.cs.uga.edu> Sender: news@athena.cs.uga.edu Organization: AI Programs, University of Georgia, Athens References: Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 05:27:32 GMT Lines: 13 My daughters still use our TI-99/4A daily to play games and run some elementary school math tutorials. It was my first personal computer and was largely responsible for a big change of career direction on my part. Instead of being a linguist who dabbles in computers, I became a computer specialist for the humanities, and then a computational linguist. -- :- Michael A. Covington internet mcovingt@uga.cc.uga.edu :- Artificial Intelligence Programs phone 706 542-0358 :- The University of Georgia fax 706 542-0349 :- Athens, Georgia 30602-7415 U.S.A. amateur radio N4TMI From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Thu Nov 19 01:53:22 EST 1992 Article: 92 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov19.065128.20297@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov18.041602.20897@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> <1992Nov18.194720.14719@i88.isc.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:51:28 GMT In article <1992Nov18.194720.14719@i88.isc.com> jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist) writes: >In article <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> scafati@incoming.med.ge.com ( > >My nomination for PDP-8.godhood: Mr. Rich Karhuse. Formerly head of >the Northwestern CS Research Lab; last I heard, working for Bell Labs. >I heard stories from several reliable sources that, upon discovering >a bug in the network central systems, he would halt the machines from >the front panel, toggle in the changes in memory and AC/L, then continue. >(And then, of course, document the fix... :') From talking with him >on numerous occaisions, I have no reason to doubt the stories. >Rich, if you're out there, many thanks. The environment you provided >was one of the single greatest influences on my professional skills. > >These kids today just don't know what they're missing. Richard Karhuse was well known years ago to the PDP-8 world. In all fairness, I don't think he would put himself in the category you do, but was well known for some really good stuff on the -8 and related peripherals. Rich took a bunch of us for a "tour" during one of the Chicago DECUS Symposiums around 1980 so I know all about that configuration. It's partially based on stuff done by others (me too), the largest being done in Atlanta by the people responsible for documenting the early changes to Focal, 1969 emanating from Georgia Tech. DEC actually published some of their stuff, although nothing about the Local Area Networks of the day. (Let's just say that at least 4 or 5 of us simultaneously reinvented this wheel :-). Some of us even had enough access to carry it out in various institutions.) Rich is best known in the "greater" -8 world for two related items: A viable RX01 system and non-system handler that uses a kludge so that a system can be built using the standard RX01 bootstrap in spite of the fact that the handler format (8-bit) is incompatible with the proscribed boot, which eventually was put into hardware. There were other 8-bit handlers, some produced merely to be compatible with other systems (WPS, COS, etc.), but only Rich's was bootable. (Part of this problem is caused by limitations in the OS/8 system build process; in P?S/8 I had to invent a special-purpose routine concept for initializing a system at system generation time to overcome a parallel situation in P?S/8.) The other thing has to do with the crux of a problem with virtually all RX01/02 code: Rich forced DEC to document the existence of the write-protect hardware of the RX01, and made DEC write up the instructions to implement it in the drive. The RX01/RX02 pocket Reference Card page two now clearly shows that bit[8] of the Error and Status Register means Write-Protect Error. On drives Rich modified, etc., if you place a diskette in with the notch area uncovered (this is backwards to newer floppies, but the identical concept), the disk can't be written on. These modified DEC drives do implement this form of protection; reading the status register on the RX01 confirms the diskette is protected. The problem is that before Rich's efforts to get the bit documented occurred, DEC published a work of misinformation: the RX02 programmer's manual. This defective book claims that bit[8] of the register means "drive is RX02 type" and is a 1 on all RX02, as if this was supposed to mean something useful. The problem is that when you program an RX01 in 8-bit mode, you don't do anything "special" to deal with it, yet if you want to read/write the same single-density diskette on an RX02, you are obliged to slightly change the interface protocol. Instead of just sending the command with the 8-bit mode bit set, you are obliged to wait for the transfer flag to raise, then to send an additional byte via the XDR instruction (0000 value, but it must be sent, and on the RX01 it must be *not* sent). Note that in 12-bit mode, none of this applies, so generally it only comes up in special handlers, conversion programs such as RTFLOP and WPFLOP, etc., while most standard DEC handlers are devoid of esoteric error handling, thus have no concern over these matters; their code runs equally (poorly) on RX01 or RX02. So, guided by the misinformation in the manual, virtually all programmers who wanted to support the RX02 inserted a test for RX02, consisting of checking for this bit[8] being a one. But this is *not* useful information because: 1) An RX02 operating as an RX02 is not the only case where this bit sets. An RX02 emulating an RX01 still sets this bit! 2) An RX01 with the write-protect feature implemented shows this bit if either the drive is not ready and has no diskette mounted, or has a ready diskette with the notch hold uncovered, and thus protected from writing. 3) The DSD-210 RX01 superset supports all of the above, and also has individual drive write-protect switches that supersede the write protects of the media on a temporary basis. So, software intending to "trust" this bit, generally fails to function when the hardware turns out to be other than an RX02 in native mode. There has been tremendous resistance to these simple facts over the years, because people keep pointing to the info in the RX02 reference manaul as "sacred" rather than a naive mistake. Rich Karhuse helped to dispell this set of mistakes, and thus allowed fixes to take place in other software. The current P?S/8 system and non-system handlers partially consist of code defensive to this issue. IF a drive is suspected of being a write-protect problem, the handler tests if the drive is actually an RX02, rather than a lessor model where the RX01-type code is possibly usual, albeit in a more inefficient manner. Rich's work in getting to the truth of the situation has contributed to the overall "quality" of the RX line, including RX50's on DECmates, etc. cjl From news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon Thu Nov 19 23:27:19 EST 1992 Article: 93 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon From: cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) Subject: Re: The good old days. Message-ID: <1992Nov19.102634.20745@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: Vpnet Public Access References: <1992Nov18.235407.12864@reed.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:26:34 GMT Lines: 45 bob@reed.edu (Robert Ankeney) writes: > One thing I was just remembering was a wonderful puzzle from way >back when. It was a challenge to write a program that zeroed memory. >It had to be written in the first 4K and would zero the entire 4K, >including itself. So, if you're feeling bored, you might see if you >can do it! Sadly, I don't remember any solution, but if I recall, >the auto-increment registers at 10-17 might have been useful. A puzzle? We ran this little ditty on almost a daily basis. 0000 ADDR LD DCA I 0010 JMP 0000 0000 ADDR LD CLEAR CONT 2 instructions. Actually, we'd run it with the data field set to 1, then 2, and finally zero. The program autoincrements itself right through the field, finally (in DF0) overwriting the DCA with a zero. (AND 0000) Then the loop was a lot tighter -- you could see the difference in the panel lights. You do have to make sure that location 10 has a 10 in it when you start, though... Why did this get run so often? Because the teachers didn't know how to reload BASIC, so if the machine went down they'd have to corral a convenient student, write him a pass out of his next class, and "make" him reload it. If you didn't have a panel key, this program would bring EDUSYSTEM-20 to its knees: 10 DEF FNA(X)=FNB(X) 20 DEF FNB(X)=FNA(X) 30 PRI FNA(1) RUN Another interesting pdp8 trick: Since we had (4) ASR-33s as our only IO, we wrote a "fourple loader" which would read a clunk from each TTY in turn. (The first character was on tape 1, the second on tape 2, etc.) This ended up being almost 4 times as fast as loading through 1 TTY, since most of the time was spent just waiting for the reader to come ready again. Each TTY used a tape with a different leader character, and the loader would figure out which tape was in which TTY. Nowadays I think they call this "reverse multiplexing." -- ---------------------------------------------------- Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! From news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!jeq Thu Nov 19 23:27:38 EST 1992 Article: 94 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!jeq From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist) Subject: Re: The good old days. Message-ID: <1992Nov19.153247.13348@i88.isc.com> Sender: usenet@i88.isc.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: birdie.i88.isc.com Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL References: <1992Nov18.235407.12864@reed.edu> <1992Nov19.102634.20745@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:32:47 GMT In article <1992Nov19.102634.20745@vpnet.chi.il.us> cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) writes: >Another interesting pdp8 trick: Since we had (4) ASR-33s as our only >IO, we wrote a "fourple loader" which would read a clunk from each TTY >in turn. (The first character was on tape 1, the second on tape 2, >etc.) This ended up being almost 4 times as fast as loading >through 1 TTY, since most of the time was spent just waiting for the >reader to come ready again. Each TTY used a tape with a different >leader character, and the loader would figure out which tape was in >which TTY. Nowadays I think they call this "reverse multiplexing." I love it! Paper tape striping! Jeez - if you could add enough serial ports, you could attempt paper tape virtual memory..... nah. -- Jonathan E. Quist INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation jeq@i88.isc.com '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094 Naperville, IL There are many things a person should experience in a lifetime. Among them are an infant's first cry, and an infant's first laugh. From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Thu Nov 19 23:27:52 EST 1992 Article: 95 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: The good old days. Message-ID: <1992Nov20.042652.18263@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov18.235407.12864@reed.edu> <1992Nov19.102634.20745@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 04:26:52 GMT In article <1992Nov19.102634.20745@vpnet.chi.il.us> cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) writes: > >A puzzle? We ran this little ditty on almost a daily basis. >0000 ADDR LD >DCA I 0010 >JMP 0000 >0000 ADDR LD CLEAR CONT > >2 instructions. Actually, we'd run it with the data field set to 1, >then 2, and finally zero. The program autoincrements itself right >through the field, finally (in DF0) overwriting the DCA with a zero. >(AND 0000) Then the loop was a lot tighter -- you could see the >difference in the panel lights. You do have to make sure that >location 10 has a 10 in it when you start, though... When the DF is 10-70, it doesn't much matter what's in 00010, since you just let it run more than enough times to clobber everything many times over. With the DF 00, when the DCA I 10 is destroyed, the JMP isn't destroyed. However, since the switches are zero from the last load address function, the switches are thus conveniently set to 0000. Hitting deposit will put a 0000 into the latest location, which since the running program is now: *0000 AND 0 JMP 0 means that the PC is either 00000 or 00001, so worst case you can either deposit a 0000 over 00000 and 00001 if you hit deposit twice, or a 0000 over 00001 and 00002 if you hit deposit twice. This can be done without looking at the lights if you're in a hurry. An alternative is to do ADDR LOAD then DEP DEP but that might take most people a few extra milliseconds. Here's one for the fans of the (nearly) cleared-out memory PDP-8: Assume that all of field 0 is all 0000 as the above might accomplish. ADDR LOAD 0000, change the switches to 1777, press DEP, CONT. Describe what the AC lights are doing, and why. (On a difficulty scale of 1-10, this problem is rated 2.) cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail Sun Nov 22 05:28:08 EST 1992 Article: 96 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail From: dicks@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Ethan Dicks) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: NS 8641 chips *available*! Date: 20 Nov 1992 12:43:55 -0500 Organization: Department of Mathematics, The Ohio State University Lines: 28 Distribution: na Message-ID: <1ej84rINNl7f@function.mps.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: function.mps.ohio-state.edu Keywords: spares 8641 buffers cjl mentioned the usefulness of various components for repairing PDP-8 boards. The place where I work uses 8641 chips in manufacturing Unibus and Q-Bus boards. We paid $7.50/chip for a bunch of National- Semiconductor 8641 chips. I think that some could be made available, perhaps at less than cost. These parts are new and in the tube. The boards that these chips were purchased for are not being manufactured in the quantity that they once were (what Unibus hardware is? :-), so there are more chips available that anyone here will probably want to buy. (One of the designs uses >6 chips). If anyone is interested, I can go to my boss and see how much the chips could be aquired for. To make it easy on accounting, I would concentrate the orders into one buy from the company and divy up the chips into individual orders. I can also include data sheets. I am not, however, aware of which DEC chips these are pin-compatible to (if any). I just checked the stock room... the other parts in needless abundance are COM 5025 sync serial chips, 4164 DRAMs and 74LS374 octal D flip-flops. Let me know... If anyone wants to make an offer, please do so; it will make my job easier. -ethan -- n8emr!uncle!jcnpc!kumiss!erd@zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu or erd@kumiss.UUCP From news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!dgbt!netfs!psinntp!psinntp!plx!sparky!asgard Sun Nov 22 06:09:11 EST 1992 Article: 97 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!nott!dgbt!netfs!psinntp!psinntp!plx!sparky!asgard From: asgard@sparky (J.R. Stoner) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> Sender: usenet@plx.com (Usenet Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: sparky Organization: Heironamous Botch's Murk Works X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6] References: <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:29:24 GMT Lines: 26 Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv (scafati@incoming.med.ge.com) wrote: : In article <1992Nov18.041602.20897@vpnet.chi.il.us>, cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) writes: : |> scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) writes: : |> >"REAL MEN" (and real women) don't use paper tape. They use front panels. : |> : |> Ah, yes... I remember the contests we used to have, seeing who could : |> toggle in the RIM loader the fastest. (That's probably one of the : |> reasons I need new switch handles :-) I don't remember the record : |> time, but I used to be about average -- I'll time myself and see what : |> it comes out to. : |> : |> -- : |> ---------------------------------------------------- : |> Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us : |> Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! : : Ah yes, 6016, 6011, 5027, 6016.... We used to compete on a PDP8/I which : had the smooth rocker switches rather than the toggle type. The rockers : were far superior- you could kind of "flow" down the switches rather : than flick up or down. I have a PDP8/L, but I'd really like an PDP8/I : someday Um, nope. Mine was 33 words long and started: 7126, 1060, 6755... You must have been using a different RIM that I did. -- J.R. Stoner, DWMIT - asgard@plx.com - sun.com!plx!plxsun!asgard From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Sun Nov 22 06:09:31 EST 1992 Article: 98 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: NS 8641 chips *available*! Message-ID: <1992Nov22.102758.14130@news.columbia.edu> Keywords: spares 8641 buffers Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1ej84rINNl7f@function.mps.ohio-state.edu> Distribution: na Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 10:27:58 GMT In article <1ej84rINNl7f@function.mps.ohio-state.edu> dicks@function.mps.ohio-state.edu (Ethan Dicks) writes: >cjl mentioned the usefulness of various components for repairing >PDP-8 boards. The place where I work uses 8641 chips in manufacturing >Unibus and Q-Bus boards. We paid $7.50/chip for a bunch of National- >Semiconductor 8641 chips. I think that some could be made available, >perhaps at less than cost. These parts are new and in the tube. That's a bit high, but could be useful to some of us who maintain/repair the Omnibus/Qbus/Unibus cards that use them. Unfortunately, this is the least needed non-74xx chip relative to the PDP-8, as I believe it's only used in a few 8/A memory boards while the rest of the list is more commonly used in this class of boards. There is no equivalent, as DEC just accepts the NS or Signetics numbering system for these chips, and most manufacturers went along with the scheme. I once did find some chips that DEC soldered into boards as SP-384, yet they were actually made by/for TI, and instead had a bizarre and lengthy number on them, perhaps being a special-order number as DEC approached TI as a second source for the chips, and TI didn't want to be identified as "following in the footsteps" of Signetics or National Semiconductor, even though these chips were never the forefront of any competition between these companies, etc. If anyone designs new Omnibus peripherals, there are many choices of chips to do pretty much the same thing. Some of the CESI designs take advantage of newer chips, although in some cases they are taking slight liberties with the design, and even DEC has occasionally done so in a few cases of 8/a board. The "worst offender" I am aware of is the use of 7438 as a buss driver, which may not pass the design spec re leakage allowance for an Omnibus driver. Certainly, when this chip was available, DEC passed over it in favor of the 7401 with leakage being measured and graded out, etc. It is possible that more modern versions of all of these chips just work due to better manufacturing techniqes, etc. In any case, the cards I saw the chips used in were presumed to be used in 8/a boxes where usually (but *not* definitely) the buss tends to be 20 slots or less, while the Omnibus design spec is for an 80-slot machine (two full 8/e boxes with a BC08H cable pair between them). My own machine is a 40-slot 8/e box with a 20-slot 8/a box attached using the obscure BC-80C cable to properly connect it. (You can also use two BC08H cables, but it won't "fold" very pretty, and you must ensure to disconnect the Power-OK jumpers on the cable in either case. This is always the case when there are two un-like boxes such as 8/e, 8/m or 8/e, 8/a, etc.) So, Ethan's offer is welcome, but only seems to solve a small portion of the problem; anyone else out there with some ability to dredge up the other non-standard chips short of cannabalizing one board to fix another? (That method ultimately fails.) cjl From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Sun Nov 22 06:12:10 EST 1992 Article: 99 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have Message-ID: <1992Nov22.110859.14642@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 11:08:59 GMT In article <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> asgard@sparky (J.R. Stoner) writes: > >Um, nope. Mine was 33 words long and started: 7126, 1060, 6755... >You must have been using a different RIM that I did. Wrong. RIM is a standard name for a paper-tape format and its loader: it stands for Read-In Mode. It proscribes a format that is a subset of the paper-tape loading format known as BIN. In Bin format, origins are optional, as the next word is implicitly to be loaded at the next location, etc. In RIM format, each word must be preceded by an explicit origin, since the loader has no ability to auto-increment the loading address. Additionally, the BIN format ends with a checksum not meant to be loaded, while RIM format has no checksum. It is possible to create a "universal" binary tape as follows: *200 /ARBITRARY ORIGIN FIRST, CLA /CLEAN UP *. /FOR RIM'S BENEFIT TAD 300 /NEXT INSTRUCTION *. /FOR RIM'S BENEFIT TAD 301 /NEXT INSTRUCTION *. /FOR RIM'S BENEFIT HLT /NEXT INSTRUCTION *. /FOR RIM'S BENEFIT Such a binary tape is essentially in RIM format because the programmer inserted the required origins where needed. Note the use of an extra origin after the last instruction. This is necessary because the checksum outputted to the tape will become a junk value loaded there! Without that "safety" origin, the last instruction would get overlayed by the junk value. Of course this tape is acceptable to BIN format in the normal way. Now back to the poster's reference: You are indicating the RX01 bootstrap which is 30 words long. This has zero to do with RIM. I believe that you are equating the fact that you toggle in the RX boot, and the other poster toggles in a RIM loader. They are for quite different purposes. His machine has only paper-tape as a peripheral, while you have a floppy-disk-based machine, and you are toggling in the code to bootstrap the O/S on floppy. His machine must always have a paper-tape loader available, since that's all he has available at that point. BTW, the RIM loader is shorter than some of the boot sequences of certain peripherals, so it's less hand work to toggle in the RIM loader, and boot by reading in a short paper-tape of the longer boot. The RIM loader is in fact shorter than the RX01 or RX02 bootstraps (30 and 34 locations respectively; I think your reference to 33 is to the octal value of where to *start* the code, not the length, as both of these routines start at 0033.). The RIM loader is 18 words long. I know of one user who made a continuous loop of such a RIM program on a model 33 Teletype. The tape consisted of multiple copies of the RX boot with the leader-trailer carefully glued together. The machine was always started with the RIM loader, and then the reader was manually enabled. This would read in one copy of the RX boot and start it up. It was the standard RX boot code augmented by a patch to the RIM loader itself to auto-start the RX code. (This machine actually had the MI8E Diode boot loader card, but the contents was the RIM loader, not the RX01 bootstrap.) BTW, there is a much shorter way to boot the RX01 than the DEC-supplied bootstrap. The reason is that the DEC bootstrap is longer than necessary for two specific items: 1) It attempts to boot on either drive 0 or drive 1. Booting from drive one may in fact be undesirable, but in any case, it is usually not worth toggling in longer code just for this frill. 2) Because of 1), the code doesn't take advantage of the self-test that the drive performs every time power-clear occurs. Since the boot code starts with CLEAR, CONT (START on older machines), the self-test always occurs, but is usable only on drive 0. (Drive 1 is merely recalibrated, but drive 0 is recalibrated and read as well. The boot code merely replicates what the self-test does, but supports doing so on either drive.) Thus, it is possible to toggle in a much shorter boot that expects the power-clear-induced self-test to play an integral role in the boot process. I can dig up this shorter boot, which I think was posted to pdp8-lovers about a year ago. I believe that version can be slightly trimmed as well, but makes the code dependent on the CPU being an 8/e. (Most are, but the RX8E/RX01/02 or the DSD-210 equivalent can be placed in the DW8E, and thus could be attached to a PDP-8 or LINC-8. I believe the shortened version depends on the proper execution of CLA CLL CML IAC RTL to load the AC with 0006, which can't work on those two machines; it would function on any DW8E-P hooked to an 8/i, 8/l or -12 however.) The DEC-standard RX01/02 boot code is 4 words longer than the RX01-only version. It not only boots either drive, it also attempts to load in either density. And it also functions on RX01. However, because it is longer than 32 words, it cannot be implemented on the MI8E Diode Loader module, and thus is only an option of the 8/a boot card. By paring the code down, it is possible to write a version than *can* fit into 32 words and thus could be implemented on the MI8E card. This could be a version that only supports drive 0, and possibly could require a front-panel switches setting to select single versus double density. Alternatively, the front panel switches could select both the drive unit and the density if there is enough room. cjl From news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon Sun Nov 22 14:25:53 EST 1992 Article: 100 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon From: cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) Subject: Re: The good old days. Message-ID: <1992Nov22.050516.19990@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: Vpnet Public Access References: <1992Nov18.235407.12864@reed.edu> <1992Nov19.102634.20745@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov20.042652.18263@news.columbia.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 05:05:16 GMT Lines: 16 lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >Assume that all of field 0 is all 0000 as the above might accomplish. ADDR >LOAD 0000, change the switches to 1777, press DEP, CONT. Describe what the >AC lights are doing, and why. That's a weird one! I just tried it, and now I'll have to sit down and cipher what is going on in there... >(On a difficulty scale of 1-10, this problem is rated 2.) This means you have more? -- ---------------------------------------------------- Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Sun Nov 22 14:46:40 EST 1992 Article: 101 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: The good old days. Message-ID: <1992Nov22.194547.3976@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov19.102634.20745@vpnet.chi.il.us> <1992Nov20.042652.18263@news.columbia.edu> <1992Nov22.050516.19990@vpnet.chi.il.us> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 19:45:47 GMT In article <1992Nov22.050516.19990@vpnet.chi.il.us> cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) writes: > >This means you have more? Not too many more for just a CPU per se. Here's one that came up in another newsgroup: Assume that there is a test location CHAR containing an arbitrary ASCII character. (If symbolic gets in the way, then assume it's location 0020, i.e., CHAR=0020.) Starting at 0200, write the shortest piece of code that can prove that the contents of CHAR are in fact within the range of printable octal digits, i.e, are in the range 0060-0071. Assume the worst, i.e., the contents could be junk. The idea is to do something which contains: *200 START, CLA CLL /CLEAN UP {whatever you need} TAD CHAR /GET THE POTENTIAL CHARACTER WE ARE TESTING {test it somehow} JMP BAD /JUMP THERE IF NOT AN OCTAL DIGIT / COMES HERE IF THE CHARACTER WAS GOOD. HLT /THIS IS PAST THE CHALLENGE BAD, HLT /COMES HERE WHEN CHAR AIN'T AN OCTAL DIGIT Literally any 12-bit value might be in CHAR, but we want to weed out the "good" values as defined. The idea is to write the MINIMUM amount of code to check for the good vs. the bad (and the ugly). You supply the stuff that belongs in place of the stuff inside of {} in both places. Note: the AC is allowed to be "dirty" when you get to BAD. When the CHAR is acceptable, it falls through for more processing, etc, so I have merely placed a HLT there. Similarly, the "bad" values, having been isolated can be further processed at BAD, so I have merely placed a HLT there as well. (Hint: the AC=0000 through 0007 depending on whether the original CHAR value was "0" through "7".) On an scale of 1-10, this problem has a difficulty rating of 6. cjl From news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!utzoo!censor!isgtec!bmw Tue Nov 24 15:42:58 EST 1992 Article: 102 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!utzoo!censor!isgtec!bmw From: bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Rim Loaders (part01/01) (Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have) Message-ID: <3725@isgtec.isgtec.com> Date: 23 Nov 92 01:19:11 GMT References: <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> Sender: news@isgtec.com Organization: ISG Technologies Inc., Mississauga Ontario Lines: 43 In article <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> asgard@sparky (J.R. Stoner) writes: > Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv (scafati@incoming.med.ge.com) wrote: > : Ah yes, 6016, 6011, 5027, 6016.... > > Um, nope. Mine was 33 words long and started: 7126, 1060, 6755... > You must have been using a different RIM that I did. You must have been using a different Rim than *any* of us :-) Not to put too fine a point on it; here are the two I remember(*) most: Rim Loader Low speed High Speed (TTY) (paper-tape reader) 7756/ 6032 6014 6031 6011 5357 5357 6036 6016 7106 7106 7006 7006 7510 7510 5357 5374 7006 7006 6031 6011 5367 5367 6034 6016 7420 7420 3776 3776 3376 3376 7775/ 5356 5357 --- * Or, how I would have remembered, if I hadn't forgotten :-) I cheated and copied them off the back of my "pdp8/e instruction list" [DEC started the lower-case revolution even before Ken Thompson]. -- "Eventually, I decided that thinking was not getting me very far and it was time to try building." -- Rob Pike, The Text Editor sam bmw@isgtec.com [ ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!bmw ] Bruce Walker From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!incoming!scafati Tue Nov 24 15:46:58 EST 1992 Article: 103 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.mr.med.ge.com!incoming!scafati From: scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) Subject: Re: Rim Loaders (part01/01) (Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have) Message-ID: <1992Nov24.142107.7640@mr.med.ge.com> Sender: scafati@incoming (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) Nntp-Posting-Host: incoming-gw Organization: GE Medical Systems References: <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> <3725@isgtec.isgtec.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 14:21:07 GMT Lines: 37 In article <3725@isgtec.isgtec.com>, bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) writes: |> In article <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> asgard@sparky (J.R. Stoner) writes: |> > Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv (scafati@incoming.med.ge.com) wrote: |> > : Ah yes, 6016, 6011, 5027, 6016.... |> > |> > Um, nope. Mine was 33 words long and started: 7126, 1060, 6755... |> > You must have been using a different RIM that I did. |> |> You must have been using a different Rim than *any* of us :-) |> |> Not to put too fine a point on it; here are the two I remember(*) most: |> |> |> Rim Loader |> |> Low speed High Speed |> (TTY) (paper-tape reader) |> |> 7756/ 6032 6014 |> 6031 6011 |> 5357 5357 |> 6036 6016 In the interest of ending this thread, I have to admit, those sound pretty familiar. Ok, so it's been 15 year, my memory is fading- so sue me! You have to admit, I was pretty close on the High Speed Reader... I would have gotten it right if I'd had a PDP8/I front panel to diddle, yea, that's it... -- ________________________________________________________________________________ | The views expressed herein do not | Fear Victor-charles Scafati | necessarily represent the views of the | no scafati@mr.med.ge.com | author, let alone his employer or client | Art! ________________________________________________________________________________ From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Tue Nov 24 15:52:02 EST 1992 Article: 104 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Rim Loaders (part01/01) (Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have) Message-ID: <1992Nov24.204249.8049@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov18.165758.6984@mr.med.ge.com> <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> <3725@isgtec.isgtec.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 20:42:49 GMT In article <3725@isgtec.isgtec.com> bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) writes: >In article <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> asgard@sparky (J.R. Stoner) writes: >> Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv (scafati@incoming.med.ge.com) wrote: >> : Ah yes, 6016, 6011, 5027, 6016.... >> >> Um, nope. Mine was 33 words long and started: 7126, 1060, 6755... >> You must have been using a different RIM that I did. > >You must have been using a different Rim than *any* of us :-) As I pointed out, he doesn't understand the difference between *something* being toggled in, and the RIM loader being toggled in. In his case, it's the RX01 bootstrap that starts loading at 00024 and is started at 00033 after a power-clear. > >Not to put too fine a point on it; here are the two I remember(*) most: > > > Rim Loader > > Low speed High Speed > (TTY) (paper-tape reader) > >7756/ 6032 6014 > 6031 6011 > 5357 5357 > 6036 6016 > 7106 7106 > 7006 7006 > 7510 7510 > 5357 5374 > 7006 7006 > 6031 6011 > 5367 5367 > 6034 6016 > 7420 7420 > 3776 3776 > 3376 3376 >7775/ 5356 5357 Note that 7776 is the pointer for storing data through, thus isn't loaded by the toggle-in code. 7777 is reserved also: it is the JMP to the actual start of the BIN loader which loads into locations before 7756. Since there are different versions of the BIN loader, the convention is to start at 7777 and JMP to whatver you have to, etc. A comment on the standard code above: Note that in 7765 there is a different instruction depending on which loader is used. (All other changes are merely to use the I/O instructions for either the teletype or high-speed reader.) In the TTY: version, it's a JMP back to the top of the routine. The reason for this is that the first loop uses 6036, which loads the AC, thus the old contents while waiting for the leader to finish get wiped out when the 6036 is executed for what follows the leader. In the RDR: version, it's a JMP to the bottom of the routine. Effectively, it stores the shifted leader code into 7776, and then effectively goes to the same loop at the top as in the TTY: version. The point is that this JMP to 7774 can be the same in *both* versions. In P?S/8, my proprietary system for the -8, there is an option for a BIN and RIM loader to be put into the usual places. I use the form stated, meaning with that one word always set to the value that works for either reader. If the command is: .BIN /P/R Then you get the TTY: version (with the one word changed) .BIN /P/R/F gets you the standard high-speed reader version. BTW, I have managed to squeeze the BIN loader down to 7643-7755. The P?S/8 command .BIN /P gives you a TTY: BIN and RIM loader and starts the BIN loader .BIN /P/F gives you a high-speed reader BIN and RIM loader and starts the BIN loader. (The RIM loader start is signified by /R; actually both loaders are put into memory together. The /P indicates paper-tape loading; ordinarily the BIN program is used to load system binary files. If the /P switch is given as well as files, then the binary is punched. If /F is given then it is punched on the high-speed punch. If /R is also given, then the output is punched in universal RIM format with the "sacrifical" origin setting past the last loaded word to avoid corrupting the code with the checksum generated for compatibility with the BIN loader.) The JMP at 7777 is a valid JMP to the new start address. This version of BIN supports everything, including the rubout-character-bracketed error messages of paper-tape assemblers that might get interspersed in the binary output if the tape was prepared on the Teletype, and you still wanted to load the binary in spite of the assembler errors. This is a standard feature, but not all of DEC's loaders support it (the self-starting binary loader does not). The only feature not supported is that, like the RIM loader, you must choose in advance whether you want the low or high-speed version. The DEC version reads the console switches for a "dynamic" decision, yet I doubt if anyone is complaining about the inability to switch reader devices in the middle of a multi-tape load :-). So, by eliminating the switch control (which is appropriate for a loader which is optionally brought into memory from a disk-based O/S when you want to kick the O/S out of memory for some stand-alone stuff, such as diagnostics, etc.), and squeezing the hell out of the rest of the code, the page is occupied from 7643-7777 only. This allows 7600-7642 to be available for a bootstrap back to the O/S by starting at 7600. Admittedly there are some programs that wipe out 07600 or so, since they "know" the BIN loader isn't there, but for "well-behaved" programs, this means that you can reload the O/S in most cases without having to toggle in a disk reboot, etc. (A known sort point: the RANISZ diagnostic loads a few words in 07600-07604 or so.) A word of warning! The self-starting binary loader has a serious design problem: When a field setting appears in the binary tape, it is erroneously acted upon too soon, i.e., the last loaded location to be loaded in the previous field is instead loaded into the new field! There is no fix for this. (You need to "double-buffer" the frames, and all *working* BIN loaders do that. But the self-starter "forgot" about that!) Some diagnostic tapes are aware of the problem, and fix the problem by having an extraneous origin setting before the field setting, just after any loaded data. The origin becomes to the correct location in the wrong field, but since no data is associated with it, it's harmless. After the field setting is processed, the new data is correctly loaded into the new field, etc. Aware of this problem, the programmers of several things such as 8K BASIC chose instead to require a specific version of BIN to load the program. The binary of 8K BASIC will attempt to patch over the loader! It makes the loader JMP into some just-read-in code (not yet checksummed!) where it then patches the end-of-load routine to JMP to some other code, so that the program itself can decide to start itself if the load went OK. If the load got a checksum failure, then the intercepting code restores the BIN loader for a retry. The obvious question: If there was a checksum failure, how do we know that these intercepting kludges are themselves loaded correctly? cjl From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Tue Nov 24 15:52:23 EST 1992 Article: 105 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Rim Loaders (part01/01) (Re: What I've got and what I'd like to have) Message-ID: <1992Nov24.204625.8283@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> <3725@isgtec.isgtec.com> <1992Nov24.142107.7640@mr.med.ge.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 20:46:25 GMT In article <1992Nov24.142107.7640@mr.med.ge.com> scafati@incoming.med.ge.com (Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv) writes: >In article <3725@isgtec.isgtec.com>, bmw@isgtec.com (Bruce M. Walker) writes: >|> In article <1992Nov19.182924.25967@plx.com> asgard@sparky (J.R. Stoner) writes: >|> > Victor-charles Scafati 4-6784 MR Srv (scafati@incoming.med.ge.com) wrote: >|> > : Ah yes, 6016, 6011, 5027, 6016.... >|> > >|> > Um, nope. Mine was 33 words long and started: 7126, 1060, 6755... >|> > You must have been using a different RIM that I did. > >In the interest of ending this thread, I have to admit, those sound pretty >familiar. Ok, so it's been 15 year, my memory is fading- so sue me! No flames here; you are merely mixing up what you toggled. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to have at one point needed to toggle in a RIM loader and at another time toggle in a disk boot. > >You have to admit, I was pretty close on the High Speed Reader... > >I would have gotten it right if I'd had a PDP8/I front panel to diddle, >yea, that's it... That's cheating, since the code is emprinted *on* the panel! cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Mon Nov 30 18:32:54 EST 1992 Article: 106 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Federated Consultants? Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1992Nov30.222516.2661@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 22:25:16 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 8 I tried mail and phone contact with Federated Consultants, and failed to make contact (the mail was returned as undeliverable, and the 800 number got me to some men's journal). Have they gone the way of the dinosaur? ESS Limited is still out there, and they list many Omnibus boards at $75 each (I just phoned them). Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu