From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!ra!jrw.nrl.navy.mil!wyatt Wed May 5 11:25:01 EDT 1993 Article: 245 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!ra!jrw.nrl.navy.mil!wyatt From: wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil (JRW) Subject: WHY! Message-ID: Lines: 4 Sender: usenet@ra.nrl.navy.mil Organization: NRL Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 13:08:36 GMT AND, ISZ, DCA, TAD, JMS, JMP, IOT, (I forget what the general numonic for the 7000 (octal, of course) code was) But really--who cares about PDP8s anymore except for museums. Remember when you could only afford 4k of memory? From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Wed May 5 11:25:08 EDT 1993 Article: 246 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: WHY! Message-ID: <1993May5.152422.17610@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 15:24:22 GMT In article wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil (JRW) writes: >AND, ISZ, DCA, TAD, JMS, JMP, IOT, (I forget what the general numonic for ^^^^^^^ I assume you mean mnemonic :-). >the 7000 (octal, of course) code was) But really--who cares about PDP8s >anymore except for museums. Remember when you could only afford 4k of >memory? OK, you proved that you read page 1 of some manual, or at least the first half of the page, since the OPR group (the 7000) is so complicated that it would spill onto at least another page. Apparently you are also ignorant of the aims of this group, which I won't belabor at this point. In short - Read the FAQ. >From the way you say about who cares: did you ever? cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Wed May 5 12:09:12 EDT 1993 Article: 247 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Re: WHY! Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1993May5.152450.10354@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 15:24:50 GMT References: Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 25 >From article , by wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil (JRW): > But really--who cares about PDP8s anymore except for museums. That question is very much like "Who cares about history except for museums?" If you look at other things that museums collect, old cars, railroad trains, and such, you'll find that there are a substantial number of private collectors. For example, there are plenty of people with antique cars in their garages (my next door neighbor has a Model A Ford, and a woman up the street used to own a railroad passenger car that she'd use for an occasional excursion!). Old computers are about as easy to keep running as old cars -- some parts are still made, others are hard to get, but with a bit of work, you can keep them running just about forever. Of course, my neighbor wouldn't be well advised to use his old Ford to commute to work day-in and day out, and for many of the same reasons, I'm not likely to use my old PDP-8 for my research. (Besides, most of my research is done in Ada, and I can't get that to compile on any of my PDP-8s). Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Wed May 5 13:01:52 EDT 1993 Article: 248 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: PDP-8/a bootstrap ROMs Message-ID: <1993May5.170039.23312@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1993May5.152450.10354@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 17:00:39 GMT Someone asked me about the PDP-8/a option board that controls memory extension and restart and bootstrap ROMs. Here is the description of the bootstrap ROM portion: The bootstrap ROM is implemented in a pair of 256x4-bit fusible link ROMs (I believe 82S126) that can be blasted (once) with an appropriate device. The contents are addressed a pair of nybbles at a time in both chips and can be looked upon as a 128x16-bit device. For each word of 16 bits, 12 are used to hold data, and 4 are control lines. The control lines are: 1) This word is an address load value 2) This word is an extended address load value (not all bits used) 3) This word is data; deposit it and advance the address 4) Ignore the data word; start the machine up] The restart address can be specified as any of the even values from 00-16 octal and the boot (SW) address as any even value anywhere in the ROM. Thus, the lower addresses are reserved for potential restart addresses, and the higher addresses are for specific device boot code addresses. Setting the restart address to zero usually means to execute a restart function that in fact restarts the machine at 00000. It would be implemented as: 000/ 0000+LA Do a load address to 0000 001/ 0000+EL+ST Do an extended load address to 00 and also start up The operations can be (partially) microcoded this way to save space. The other standard addresses that *may* be provided are 00200, 02000, and 04000 in some standard ROM sets, but this varies. Note that the restart address of 00000 is the only value compatible with all of the earlier machines that hard-wire this to 00000. Thus, the restart at 00000 is the only "important" one as far as any meaningful software is concerned, etc. There exists a standard RX boot ROM set that performs a few machine diagnostics and eventually boots the machine from an RX01/02. This is noted by the presence of "ABCD" before it starts, as various tests report that the machine is functional, etc. This ROM set also shares the restart limitation in that ROM address 00 is the only viable restart address, and it in turn causes the CPU to restart at 00000. The rest of the space is taken up by the boot code (which starts just after the restart code, at ROM address 002 (004)). Several other standard ROM's exist that implement the 4 restart options, and also code for RX, RL, TC08, DF/RF, RK, TD8E, etc. (Note: *not* all at the same time! Each ROM set generally has 3-4 devices, and there is a partial overlap, etc. but not necessarily at the same ROM addresses.) I have written utilities to help support the development of the ROMs which assume that 1 page of code is the PDP-8 binary of the ROM data, and another page is the table of 4-bit codes for the associated functions, etc. The data is printed out in octal, binary, and hex nybbles, suitable for entry into a Motorola-built support system for 6809, which can blast 82S126, etc. Using this utility, two ROMs have already been designed: One boots the CESI host adaptor for SCSI buss after performing a memory diagnostic. If it works correctly, it should (eventually) print "AOK" on the console and then attempt to boot the SCSI disk on address 0, logical unit 0-3 as selected by the switch register. (O=default hard disk, 2= default floppy disk, 1 is often an extra hard disk, 3 is often an additional floppy or possibly a QIC-02 tape backup unit; all of this assumes the use of an SMS/Omti controller from the 20-C, 20-D, 5000, or 7000 series of non-imbedded SCSI controllers, etc.) If there is an error on the disk, the returned status is printed in octal instead of a successful bootup, etc. The other ROM is styled after some PDP-11 ROMs. When the SW is used, the ROM program prints out a prompt of $. The user then inputs a 2-letter device code. If the code is unrecognized, a ? is printed, and it restarts with the prompt of $. Recognized codes are: RF - Performs a standard RF08/DF32 bootstrap. RX - Performs the standard extended RX01/02 bootstrap that can boot to either drive 0 or drive 1 in either single or double density modes. RK - Performs an extended version of the RK8E bootstrap: First drive 0 is addressed and a write-protect operation is attempted. If this fails, then drive 1 is tried, then 2, then 3, then 0 again, etc. The first drive in turn that becomes ready, and thus the write-protect operation actually succeeds on, is then booted to in the now-safe write-protected state. OS/8, COS-310 and P?S/8 all support bootstraps to any of the 4 drives. (P?S/8 also supports booting to the nearest 1/4 drive, but this code only supports to the nearest whole drive.) TC - Performs an extended version of the TC01/08 bootstrap to any drive unit 0 through 7. Each unit has attempted on it a rewind function. If any error other than an END error occurs, the next unit is selected. Once the rewind operation finishs with an END error (proving the tape is both ready and also rewound), that unit is then read to startup the O/S on the tape, etc. (Note: OS/8, COS-310, etc. only support booting to unit 0. It is possible to upgrade OS/8 to a "smarter" handler that in turn could support a multi-unit boot. P?S/8 already supports a boot to any unit 0 through 7. Typeset-8 supports booting to unit 4 only.) The two-letter codes can be entered in upper or lower case, and the input is echoed as typed. The only problems are that you cannot edit a mistake, and that exactly two characters must be enterred for each attempt at using the code. (I.E., if you enterred something like "Z" which is clearly wrong already since it doesn't match the list, you still have to enter another character before the ? is printed and you get another prompt, etc. Hey, what do you want for all of that in 124 words :-).) Due to space restrictions (only 128 words available total, and 2 reserved for restart) these ROMs only support the restart at 00000 from ROM address 00. (The 4-function ROM does have two non-adjacent free words in it. One is totally free, and the other is "bummable" with some range restrictions. Neither of these has any functionality to add regarding the restart options, and isn't enough to help add any "frills" to the code, etc.) I can post the utilities (or better submit them to the archives) if anyone is interested. That also includes the sources for the ROM programs as well. cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!bogus.sura.net!ra!jrw.nrl.navy.mil!wyatt Wed May 5 18:05:08 EDT 1993 Article: 249 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!bogus.sura.net!ra!jrw.nrl.navy.mil!wyatt From: wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil (JRW) Subject: Follow to my first comment Message-ID: Lines: 23 Sender: usenet@ra.nrl.navy.mil Organization: NRL Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 19:36:54 GMT This reply is in response to comments to my first posting. Actually I was delighted to see that some of you still care about the PDP-8. If you are under thirty, you probably have no interest in my comments and probably wonder what is a PDP-8.? No I didn't get the PDP-8 mneumonics from a book, but from memory. I do have many fond memories of working with PDP-8s from a 4k 8/s to a 32k 8/e with hard disk. I also remember feeding paper tape to a teletype and waiting to see if the checksum was zero, assembling code in my head and toggling it in, watching a program execute by observing the light patterns ( signature analysis), etc. I still marvel at the efficient software that could run in 4k. Even a Fortran complier but you all probably know this too. With the low price of PCs, it was surprising to me that any one would still want to contend with the PDP-8 and the extra labor involved in writing code for it. I have always wondered if DEC had gone with 8 bit words instead of 12 bit words, would the PDP-8 continued to evolve much as the 8080 has evolved to the 80486? From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Wed May 5 18:06:44 EDT 1993 Article: 250 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Re: Follow to my first comment Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 20:25:35 GMT References: Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 30 >From article , by wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil (JRW): > > I have always wondered if DEC had gone with 8 bit words instead of 12 > bit words, would the PDP-8 continued to evolve much as the 8080 has > evolved to the 80486? The evolution of the PDP-8 certainly parallels some of the 8086 evolutionary trends. Consider: Address space problems -- the PDP-8 memory field switching mechanism (used to break the 4k limit) is certainly less elegant than the general segmented memory system used on the 8086 to break the 64k limit of the 8080. On the other hand, the PDP-8's field switching mechanism beats the pants off of the bank switching schemes used on the IBM PC to address beyond 640K. Word size problems -- the PDP-8/E EAE extends the instruction set of the basic PDP-8 in a way that adds "register irregularity" that is just as bad as the irregularity of the 8080 that was carried over into the 8086 -- that is, you've got one accumulator for single precision, a different accumulator for double precision, and a strange problem of shoving operands back and forth so you can get work done. On the other hand, the 8086 is pipelined (to a surprising extent), but I've never seen a pipelined PDP-8! Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Wed May 5 18:14:32 EDT 1993 Article: 251 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Follow to my first comment Message-ID: <1993May5.221353.14535@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 22:13:53 GMT In article <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu> jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: > >On the other hand, the 8086 is pipelined (to a surprising extent), but >I've never seen a pipelined PDP-8! What do you expect when the company has an almost zero hardware budget, and all of the effort is put into adding frills to the -11? How about someone coming up with a paper design for a pipe-lined -8 CPU using modern logic to implement it, etc. Incidentally, others suggested an 8086-like way to (admittedly incompatibly) extend the -8 address space, but DEC never did it. The windowing of memory could be done quite straightforwardly, but we're sort-of stuck with doing our own memory management in the program. Of course, that does allow us to use up to 32K in any -8, 128K in a KT8A machine, and 512K in an MEC8 machine. (Note that 512K x 12 = 768K x 8, whereas PC's have problems beyond 640K x 8 due to IBM's design limitations.) cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!ivie Thu May 6 16:40:48 EDT 1993 Article: 252 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!ivie From: ivie@cc.usu.edu Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Follow to my first comment Message-ID: <1993May5.222259.67332@cc.usu.edu> Date: 5 May 93 22:22:59 MDT References: <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu> <1993May5.221353.14535@news.columbia.edu> Organization: Utah State University Lines: 19 In article <1993May5.221353.14535@news.columbia.edu>, lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: > > How about someone coming up with a paper design for a pipe-lined -8 CPU > using modern logic to implement it, etc. Actually, I'm more interested in stuff like programming one into a big Xilinx. The 4005 series should have more than enough space. That's right, we are entering the age where you can roll your own CPU... I think the PDP-5 might work better as a Xilinx machine. Yes, putting the PC in location zero is a bitch, but it lets you make a nice clean break between the CPU and everything else. The interrupt controller, for example, could be simply a DMA device; it copies location zero to location two and then stuffs a one in location zero. Further, a PDP-5 could be optimized to come within the speed of a PDP-8; after all, it only _really_ has to store the PC when it gives up the bus to a DMA device... Roger "I'm 30 and the PDP-5 will be soon" Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!ivie Thu May 6 16:41:47 EDT 1993 Article: 253 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!hellgate.utah.edu!cc.usu.edu!ivie From: ivie@cc.usu.edu Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Follow to my first comment Message-ID: <1993May5.221919.67331@cc.usu.edu> Date: 5 May 93 22:19:19 MDT References: <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu> Organization: Utah State University Lines: 10 In article <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu>, jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: > On the other hand, the 8086 is pipelined (to a surprising extent), but > I've never seen a pipelined PDP-8! Given the number of memory references that a PDP-8 instruction might have to do (can you say ISZ I Z 10? I knew you could), I don't think you can get very far pipelining a PDP-8. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Thu May 6 17:33:16 EDT 1993 Article: 254 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Follow to my first comment Message-ID: <1993May6.211233.27160@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu> <1993May5.221919.67331@cc.usu.edu> Date: Thu, 6 May 1993 21:12:33 GMT In article <1993May5.221919.67331@cc.usu.edu> ivie@cc.usu.edu writes: >In article <1993May5.202535.15767@news.uiowa.edu>, jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: >> On the other hand, the 8086 is pipelined (to a surprising extent), but >> I've never seen a pipelined PDP-8! > >Given the number of memory references that a PDP-8 instruction might have >to do (can you say ISZ I Z 10? I knew you could), I don't think you can >get very far pipelining a PDP-8. > >Roger Ivie >ivie@cc.usu.edu True, but not a statistically likely instruction. ISZ I {not 10-17} ain't that more likely either. ISZ non-indirect is somewhat more likely of course. The bulk of the stuff is TAD, followed close by DCA, then JMP then JMS. AND and IOT's are fairly rare, except for non-interrupt programming with the skip; jmp .-1 stuff, etc. cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!newserve!bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu!not-for-mail Thu May 6 23:34:37 EDT 1993 Article: 255 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42787 alt.sys.pdp8:255 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!newserve!bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu!not-for-mail From: vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (alley cat) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Date: 6 May 1993 23:12:32 -0400 Organization: Binghamton University, Binghamton, NY Lines: 66 Message-ID: <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: bingsuns-gw.cc.binghamton.edu ...i'd be happy to relate two stories from my high school days, where we had a PDP-8/e... You've heard (or read, perhaps in the jargon file) about `walking the drives' of computers? ...well, some call it a myth, but i *did* it, and i have witnesses (Larry Kolodney, where are you?)...in retrospect, it was a foolish thing to do -- i could have done serious physical damage to the system...but i was a kid, and after hearing what the effects would be, i just *had* to try it... ...i didn't know enough assembler (PL-1?) to access the RK05j disk directly, so i programmed a BASIC kludge to sort of simulate what i wanted; i wrote two BASIC programs, one called A.BAT and one called B.BAT, each of which consisted of a single line -- A.BAT contained the line CHAIN B.BAT and B.BAT contained the line (you guessed it!) CHAIN A.BAT (what do you want, alt.hackers material? ...i was a neophyte!)...i then did some manipulation so that a DIR command indicated that these files were fairly far apart from each other, and let her rip... ...what followed was *exciting*...the first thing i noticed was that the disk access light on the front panel, which generally flickered a few times once in a while, was a blur of action...then, as the quickly vibrating read/write arm set up sympathetic vibrations in the cabinet, the whole thing began to shake...gently at first, but then to a far greater degree (almost like an off-balance washing machine)...i'm not sure the cabinet actually moved from its location on the floor, but it was damn near ready... ...and at that moment, Mr. Mezzadri, who was in charge of the computer, walked into the computer room, noticed the computer sounded *strange*, saw the disk access light freaking out, and *ran* for the on/off switch with key in hand...he was incredibly pissed off, knew exactly who was responsible (Larry and i were basically the only people in the whole school, Mezzadri included, who knew how to pull stunts like this), but somehow i got into virtually no trouble... ...well, maybe after that story the next will seem somewhat anticlimactic, but what the hell, it brings back fond memories... ...Larry & i used to have contests of all kinds, mostly `beat each other to the front of the class with the first correct program' type of thing...we devised a contest to see who could come up with more ways to crash the system, but it eventually became a mutual project...here's some of the ways i remember: 1) The easiest: We had a mark-sense card reader; the BASIC command to read cards from it was CDR...if you typed CDR & forgot to turn the card-reader on (or if you purposely turned it off first ;) the system would grind to a halt *instantly* :O 2) You could easily overflow the interrupt stack with CTL-C's...one way was to just lean on the CTL-C button; another was to make a punched paper-tape consisting of a series of CTL-C's & feeding it into the ASR-33... ...hmmm, i don't seem to remember any others off-hand...so how did y'all spend *your* high school days? :) -allen -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sometimes you have to look reality right in the eye.......and deny it! -Garrison Keillor allen lutins vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Thu May 6 23:55:08 EDT 1993 Article: 256 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42788 alt.sys.pdp8:256 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Message-ID: <1993May7.035408.18608@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 03:54:08 GMT In article <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (alley cat) writes: > >...i'd be happy to relate two stories from my high school days, where >we had a PDP-8/e... Which is programmed in PAL, not PL-1. Rocking machines, including -8's has been done a few times. You can really get an RK05 to shake, and using overlapped seek operations, you can get it *really* shaking if you have multiple drives. I have written a diagnostic for the SCSI disks on the 8/e-8/a which tries all of the possibly rock-seek sequences deliberately to find "resonances" in the system that make it flunk, etc. You can include up to four simultaneous drives in the test (hardware limitation). I once started the test up, and it eventually failed! (It turned out that it overloaded the PC-type switching power supply. Using a bigger supply made it work fine again.) Even these little MFM drives can shake up a mean storm when mounted in the H960 cabinets. Apparently, the cabs are just loose enough to get a real shake going if you hit the correct rate, etc. On a slightly different subject, I was privileged to go to the taping of the demo videotaping of a tentative TV quiz show called The Computer Game. It started with the opening shot of the PDP-8/e front panel, which was identified as "Mini" the mini-computer. The host was (Dandy) Dan Daniels, (somewhat) famous radio/TV personality/disk-jockey. Fake contestants were played by well-known faces, i.e. people who's name you don't know, but you see all the time - TV commercial actors. The 8/e had two RK05's, and the producers wanted it to move somehow in a way that the audience could see. But no effect could be accomplished with the disks that was acceptable. Eventually, they solved the problem a little differently: there were also a pair of TU56 drives on a TD8E on the machine as well. They applied black plastic electrical tape to the front of the reels of the DECtapes, and then on queue, the tape was rocked back and forth a few times in sync with some pre-recorded music. The whole thing did look rather cute, etc. The contestants were to "challenge" the -8 to some kind of word game. The machine couldn't lose; the entire dictionary was available as a file. They were going to "handicap" the -8 somehow if the show was picked up, so that contestants might have a ghost of a chance of winning, etc. The show was never picked up by the network (CBS). I still have the ticket to the show as a memento. cj "Won't apply electrical tape to DECtape reels for food" l From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!nic.umass.edu!umassd.edu!ulowell!cs.ulowell.edu!jvigneau Fri May 7 16:55:14 EDT 1993 Article: 257 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42807 alt.sys.pdp8:257 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!nic.umass.edu!umassd.edu!ulowell!cs.ulowell.edu!jvigneau From: jvigneau@cs.ulowell.edu (Joe Vigneau) Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Message-ID: Sender: usenet@ulowell.ulowell.edu (News manager - ulowell) Organization: UMass-Lowell Computer Science References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 12:57:54 GMT Lines: 9 In article <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (alley cat) writes: >...hmmm, i don't seem to remember any others off-hand...so how did >y'all spend *your* high school days? :) I'm using to read this newsgroup! -- / _ __ / jvigneau@cs.ulowell.edu <_/ <_> <-' / WPI - Class of '97 - Computer Science From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!bogus.sura.net!udel!news.intercon.com!digex.com!rocinante.digex.net!mcguire Fri May 7 22:18:38 EDT 1993 Article: 258 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!bogus.sura.net!udel!news.intercon.com!digex.com!rocinante.digex.net!mcguire From: mcguire@rocinante.digex.net (Dave McGuire) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Follow to my first comment Date: 7 May 1993 21:41:09 GMT Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt MD USA Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1sel1l$3qh@news1.digex.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rocinante.digex.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8] JRW (wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil) wrote: : This reply is in response to comments to my first posting. Actually I was : delighted to see that some of you still care about the PDP-8. If you are : under thirty, you probably have no interest in my comments and probably : wonder what is a PDP-8.? Hmmm... I'm quite a bit below thirty...I have several 8's and LOVE THEM ALL... It started out as simple curiosity, then became somewhat of an obsession. It's toned down a bit now, but I still LOVE those 8's...They're actually quite quick when you come right down to it. I've got a 28mip SPARC on my desk and computer power to spare in the computer room, but the 8 has never dissapointed me with its performance, I must say. They're a pleasure to run, even if they're not really suitable for practical work any more. : With the low price of PCs, it was surprising to me that any one would still : want to contend with the PDP-8 and the extra labor involved in writing code : for it. Low price, low performance, low quality of design, low reliability, low intelligence of architecture, low lack of kludges just to get more than one stupid program at a time running on the damn thing, need I continue? -Dave McGuire Systems Programmer Digital Express Group, Incorporated mcguire@digex.net From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Sat May 8 00:12:27 EDT 1993 Article: 259 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Follow to my first comment Message-ID: <1993May8.041019.3284@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1sel1l$3qh@news1.digex.net> Date: Sat, 8 May 1993 04:10:19 GMT In article <1sel1l$3qh@news1.digex.net> mcguire@rocinante.digex.net (Dave McGuire) writes: >JRW (wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil) wrote: >: With the low price of PCs, it was surprising to me that any one would still >: want to contend with the PDP-8 and the extra labor involved in writing code >: for it. > > Low price, low performance, low quality of design, low reliability, >low intelligence of architecture, low lack of kludges just to get more >than one stupid program at a time running on the damn thing, need I >continue? While we all know that MIPS is "Meaningless instructions per second" or something worse, the -8's fastest instruction is far from meaningless, since a NOP takes the same time as the most complicated group 1 operate instruction (or group 2 for that matter; if EAE is implemented, group 3 does take longer, such as Multiply or Divide, etc.) So, the MIPS is not based on some farfetched fast NOP, but on how fast it can execute something like CLA CLL CML RTL Which is to clear the accumulator, clear the link, then complement the link and then rotate the whole 13-bit quantity two places left leaving the constant 0002 in the accumulator, and the link clear; this is hardly a "meaningless" instruction, but it none-the-less takes the same time as the fastest NOP. The -8 is "frozen" in time because its CPU boards were all designed prior to 1971. Even the 8/a's fastest version is just the highest rev kk8f CPU boards that are for the earliest late'70-early'70 8/e. Thus, unlike all of the other highly funded DEC product lines, the -8 never had the ability to take advantage of faster logic, and is actually competing with machines that have lots more MIPS, etc. The -8 is actually quite a bit under 1 MIPS by any definition, although because of just what a MIPS might be, I would want to boost the number up somewhat. (And this is only to favor the newer designs, since they ain't so much more powerful as the MIPS ratio would indicate, since you are comparing PDP-8 OPR instructions to contrived NOP speeds on CPU's where the fast NOP isn't as representative.) However, the -8 has some other "unfair" advantages: Statistically, most subroutine calls on most architectures are really performed only for the basic transfer of control reason, the fundamental notion of just what a subroutine means. But most architectures have become muddied up with unrelated issues such as stack operations, etc., so there isn't even any such thing as a simple subroutine call. In fact, most code gets written in languages that wouldn't even be able to take advantage of a subroutine linkage mechanism without a stack even if available. (A side note: notice that the PDP-10 supports both PDP-8-JMS-like operations, as well as PUSHJ/POPJ stack-oriented calls at the user's option.) Thus, while clearly there are cases where the overhead is required, the majority of cases are overhead-ridden with cycles begging to be trimmed away, but the hardware is incapable of doing it. (There is usually more overhead trying to "fake" a non-stacked subroutine call than to just let it do it the usual way.) The PDP-8 doesn't have the overhead-ridden hardware available (the 6120 *does* have it BTW) and can only do the simple JMS subroutine call. So, there is a statistical advantage of implementing any reasonable algorithm that involves nested subroutines on the -8 or similar machines as compared to many "modern" architectures, etc. The -8 will just run much faster, MIPS for MIPS, etc. (Admittedly, a lot of machines make up for this by brute force, by having more MIPS available, but that's besides the point, since a high-MIPS -8 would match them on the MIPS ratio if the proper hardware was used to implement an -8 CPU and memory, etc.) Another related "advantage" the -8 has is that the code often implemented on the -8 includes the co-routine mechanism, a data structure virtually ignored in most architectures. (Due to the usual overhead, most architectures can't have a coroutine structure without incurring more overhead than could be saved, thus they avoid it!) While not a PDP-8-exclusive feature, the -8 implements it in a low-overhead manner. Consider two different ways (on the -8) to implement the same algorithm. The first is easily translated efficiently to any other machine and the second may be more trouble that it's worth elsewhere: / SUBROUTINE TO UNPACK A CHARACTER STRING BY HALFWORDS GETONE, .-. /MAIN ENTRY NL4000 /SET FLIP BIT TAD WHICH /GET WHICH HALF INDICATOR; ALSO SETS LINK! DCA WHICH /STORE IT BACK TAD I PTR /GET A PAIR SZL /WHICH ONE IS ON THE RIGHT CURRENTLY BSW /THE WRONG ONE, SO REVERSE THEM SNL /ARE WE DONE WITH THIS WORD? ISZ PTR /YES, BUMP TO THE NEXT ONE AND (77) /ISOLATE THE HALF WE JUST GOT JMP I GETONE /RETURN TO CALLER Notice that we need to have the initialized temporary WHICH set to 0000 to get the left-half first, and we then get the right half before advancing to the next word. This sort of thing or a simple variant of it translates well to other machines. Now consider the co-routine alternative method: / SUBROUTINE TO UNPACK A CHARACTER STRING BY HALFWORDS GETONE, .-. /ROUTINE ENTRY JMP I GETOUT /GO WHERE YOU OUGHT TO GO / EXIT ROUTINE FOR GETONE GETOUT, GET1 /COROUTINE EXIT ROUTINE; INITIALIZED FIRST TIME AND (77) /MASK OF TO ONLY DESIRED BITS JMP I GETONE /RETURN TO MAIN CALLER GET1, TAD I PTR /GET A PAIR BSW /WANT LEFT-HALF FIRST JMS GETOUT /GIVE IT TO THEM; COMES BACK LATER TAD I PTR /GET THE PAIR AGAIN JMS GETOUT /GIVE THEM RIGHT-HALF NOW ISZ PTR /BUMP TO NEXT PAIR JMP GET1 /GO DO IT AGAIN In this version, the main caller is always directed to the proper portion of the inner driving code as required. Thus, each call sets up the *next* call if required. The GETOUT contents must be initialized the first time and there is no SWITCH variable required. This simple structure doesn't change in form, even if the program requirements grow, such as a more complicated data structure form requiring additional flags/switches in the former implementation, since the flow control form is a constant regardless of complexity. The simple JMS instruction makes the whole thing viable with lowest possible overhead since it's being used for flow control, not merely as a subroutine. >From the vantage point of the inner driving loop, the main caller is a "subroutine" as well as the usual vantage point "inverse" to that one, thus the whole thing is known as a coroutine because there is no clear subordination, etc. In interrupt handling, the same structure can be applied to the transfer of control between the foreground and the background, etc. To the interrupt handler, the main program is the "subroutine" etc. So, many -8 applications are unfairly efficient, as compared to more "modern" machines :-). (Imagine an -8 built with enough MIPS to "compete".) cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!udel!news.intercon.com!psinntp!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon Sat May 8 02:17:07 EDT 1993 Article: 260 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!udel!news.intercon.com!psinntp!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon From: cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) Subject: Re: WHY! Message-ID: <1993May6.040526.19741@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: Vpnet Public Access References: Date: Thu, 6 May 1993 04:05:26 GMT Lines: 12 wyatt@chem.nrl.navy.mil (JRW) writes: > But really--who cares about PDP8s anymore except for museums. And who cares about 1965 Mustangs, or really old furniture? Different strokes and all that... Some day I'm going to read news on my ASR-33 just for the hell of it. -- ---------------------------------------------------- Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! From news.columbia.edu!news.media.mit.edu!enterpoop.mit.edu!ira.uka.de!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!ceilidh!dnichols Sun May 9 00:01:38 EDT 1993 Article: 261 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42856 alt.sys.pdp8:261 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!news.media.mit.edu!enterpoop.mit.edu!ira.uka.de!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!ceilidh!dnichols From: dnichols@d-and-d.com (DoN. Nichols) Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Message-ID: <1993May9.025302.18172@d-and-d.com> Sender: usenet@d-and-d.com (Usenet) Nntp-Posting-Host: shindig Organization: D and D Data, Vienna VA References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: Sun, 9 May 1993 02:53:02 GMT Lines: 22 In article <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (alley cat) writes: > >...i'd be happy to relate two stories from my high school days, where >we had a PDP-8/e... [ ... ] >...hmmm, i don't seem to remember any others off-hand...so how did >y'all spend *your* high school days? :) > -allen Well ... Since my high school days ended in 1960, I really didn't have access to computers, so I was attempting to design (and collecting parts for) a liquid-fueled rocket. Luckily, I didn't have access to some of the fabrication methods that I determined that I needed, so it never got built (or exploded. :-) -- Email: | ...!uunet!ceilidh!dnichols Donald Nichols (DoN.) | Voice (Days): (703) 704-2280 (Eves): (703) 938-4564 --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!concert!rutgers!cbmvax!jesup Mon May 10 20:29:28 EDT 1993 Article: 262 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42896 alt.sys.pdp8:262 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!concert!rutgers!cbmvax!jesup From: jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Message-ID: Date: 10 May 93 02:44:38 GMT References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA Lines: 24 vu0350@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (alley cat) writes: >...i'd be happy to relate two stories from my high school days, where >we had a PDP-8/e... >...hmmm, i don't seem to remember any others off-hand...so how did >y'all spend *your* high school days? :) I was one of 3 or 4 students with keys to the room with the '8/e (12K, dual dectapes, 3 asr33's). Basically, we owned the room, no one else used the machine. Other than writing games in edubasic, using it to do our pv=nrt chem homework, and just generally hanging out there whenever we weren't in class, we pulled a few pranks. One was to use the asr33's with a paper tape loop to print football pool forms. I still have 8 or so dectapes and several racks of fan-fold paper-tape software. Life patterns were another popular diversion (a hint: don't play with Life when your only output is an asr-33...) -- GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor. - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering. jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com or rutgers!cbmvax!jesup BIX: rjesup Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion. From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!network.ucsd.edu!munnari.oz.au!foxhound.dsto.gov.au!fang.dsto.gov.au!dstos3.dsto.gov.au!bennett Mon May 10 20:37:13 EDT 1993 Article: 263 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42897 alt.sys.pdp8:263 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!network.ucsd.edu!munnari.oz.au!foxhound.dsto.gov.au!fang.dsto.gov.au!dstos3.dsto.gov.au!bennett From: bennett@dstos3.dsto.gov.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Date: 10 May 93 13:43:17 +0930 Organization: Defence Science and Technology Organisation Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1993May10.134317.1@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> <1993May7.035408.18608@news.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dstos3.dsto.gov.au In article <1993May7.035408.18608@news.columbia.edu>, lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: > > Eventually, they solved the problem a little differently: there were also > a pair of TU56 drives on a TD8E on the machine as well. They applied black > plastic electrical tape to the front of the reels of the DECtapes, and then > on queue, the tape was rocked back and forth a few times in sync with some > pre-recorded music. The whole thing did look rather cute, etc. Dectape motion is interesting. On the pdp8, they rock back and forth, but on a pdp11 they zipped along because the blocks were interleaved (4 to 1 ?). We had a program called PIP11 which ran on a pdp8, and could read/write pdp11 formatted tapes. Doing a transfer between an 11 format tape and an 8 format tape caused one drive to rock furiously while the other calmly zipped along. Regards, John Bennett bennett@cis.dsto.gov.au From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Mon May 10 20:37:18 EDT 1993 Article: 264 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42953 alt.sys.pdp8:264 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Message-ID: <1993May11.002918.19355@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 00:29:18 GMT In article jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: >tape loop to print football pool forms. I still have 8 or so dectapes and >several racks of fan-fold paper-tape software. Life patterns were another >popular diversion (a hint: don't play with Life when your only output is >an asr-33...) If you are offering, I can read all of that media for you. Perhaps some of it is also interesting to our readers, etc. cjl From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Mon May 10 20:37:30 EDT 1993 Article: 265 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:42954 alt.sys.pdp8:265 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Message-ID: <1993May11.003702.19791@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> <1993May7.035408.18608@news.columbia.edu> <1993May10.134317.1@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 00:37:02 GMT In article <1993May10.134317.1@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> bennett@dstos3.dsto.gov.au writes: > >Dectape motion is interesting. On the pdp8, they rock back and forth, but on >a pdp11 they zipped along because the blocks were interleaved (4 to 1 ?). >We had a program called PIP11 which ran on a pdp8, and could read/write pdp11 >formatted tapes. Doing a transfer between an 11 format tape and an 8 format >tape caused one drive to rock furiously while the other calmly zipped along. The layout of DOS-11 and related systems is that they interleave by two actually. You transfer a block, skip the next, and usually are able to transfer the next one in the same direction, since you can restart the tape search process and find what you want skipping over only a single block. The PDP-8 DECtape copy program uses this method: First, after determining the block size of the tapes, read forward without ever turning around. A bunch of blocks are read into memory. Then, they are written onto the other tape. Then, the equivalent number of blocks are ignored and you transfer the same number into memory. Since it doesn't take too many blocks to search at full speed, this can be done forward again. The data is then written forward to the target tape, and the same logic applies. Thus when you get to the end of the tape, both tapes are positioned at the end, and half of the tape is copied, and the rest is a bunch of gaps. Then the whole process is done in reverse, since the data is read reverse and then written reverse (done this way it's direction independent). When the tapes are again at the beginning, the tape is totally copied. All of this can be run in a basic 4K -8 with a pair of TU55 or TU56 drives and a TC01/08 controller. cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!enterpoop.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!cthomas Tue May 11 04:02:11 EDT 1993 Article: 266 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!enterpoop.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!cthomas From: cthomas@athena.mit.edu (Michael T Ford) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: New (to me) PDP-8 Date: 11 May 1993 06:30:18 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 9 Message-ID: <1snh5qINN2fj@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: alfredo.mit.edu I just acquired a PDP-8/L. It seems to be older than I am. Anyway, I'd like to learn to program it. I have some data on that. Now, I'm wondering what I can really do with it. It's strictly the rack mount cabinet with all the toggles and lights. Is there anyway to hook a terminal to it, or do I get to learn how to flip switches fast? Thanks for any info, Michael From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!udel!news.intercon.com!psinntp!tfd!c3pe!nybble!charles Tue May 11 16:19:34 EDT 1993 Article: 267 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:43022 alt.sys.pdp8:267 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!udel!news.intercon.com!psinntp!tfd!c3pe!nybble!charles From: charles@nybble.acs.com (Charles Green) Subject: Minimal LIFE (Was Re: Looking for computer tales) Message-ID: <1993May11.015936.4224@nybble.acs.com> Organization: Loudoun County NetNews References: Distribution: usa Date: Tue, 11 May 93 01:59:36 GMT Lines: 16 jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: >(a hint: don't play with Life when your only output is an asr-33...) Sez yew! A program I wrote years ago for my TI-58C calculator does a 10x10 Life matrix and outputs it on the attached printer. (A few minutes per generation, as I recall... :-) >-- >GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor. > - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch -- Charles Green "The...fireworks...have just...begun!" charles@c3pe.tfd.com -Captain Zilog signature virus 2.1c - Copy me into your .signature if you love Jesus! From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!DIALix!metapro!bernie Wed May 12 15:09:02 EDT 1993 Article: 268 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:43083 alt.sys.pdp8:268 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!DIALix!metapro!bernie From: bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) Subject: Re: Looking for computer tales Message-ID: <1993May12.042550.4096@metapro.DIALix.oz.au> Organization: MetaPro Systems, Perth, Western Australia References: <1s8clc$l3i@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <1sck30$rse@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: Wed, 12 May 93 04:25:50 GMT Lines: 25 In jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: > I was one of 3 or 4 students with keys to the room with the '8/e >(12K, dual dectapes, 3 asr33's). Basically, we owned the room, no one else >used the machine. Other than writing games in edubasic, using it to do our >pv=nrt chem homework, and just generally hanging out there whenever we weren't >in class, we pulled a few pranks. One was to use the asr33's with a paper >tape loop to print football pool forms. I still have 8 or so dectapes and >several racks of fan-fold paper-tape software. Life patterns were another >popular diversion (a hint: don't play with Life when your only output is >an asr-33...) Did you ever set the bell on the `33 to ring like a phone? A really silly prank if it does so at night, just as the night watchman's out in the corridor, hears a phone ring in the locked room, unlocks the room as the bell stops, and then goes to search in vain for a non-existent phone. It only works 2 or three times... :-) -- +-----+ Bernd Felsche _-,_|\ #include | | | | MetaPro Systems Pty Ltd / | \ bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au | | | | 328 Albany Highway, X_.'-._/ Fax: +61 9 472 3337 |m|p|s| Victoria Park, Western Australia 6100 v Phone: +61 9 362 9355 From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!wsrcc.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon Thu May 13 03:06:42 EDT 1993 Article: 269 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:43122 alt.sys.pdp8:269 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!gaia.ucs.orst.edu!wsrcc.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!laidbak!tellab5!vpnet!cgordon From: cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us (gordon hlavenka) Subject: Re: Minimal LIFE (Was Re: Looking for computer tales) Message-ID: <1993May12.154159.28942@vpnet.chi.il.us> Organization: Vpnet Public Access References: <1993May11.015936.4224@nybble.acs.com> Distribution: usa Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 15:41:59 GMT Lines: 26 jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: >(a hint: don't play with Life when your only output is an asr-33...) When I was in high school (class of '76) we programmed Life using an 8 X n matrix, with the output on paper tape from an ASR33... We also had an 80 X 80 Life which outputted to paper on the ASR33. SSSSLLLLOOOOWWWW! And, a hexagonal Life. The actual grid was a one-sixth wedge of a hexagon. After the generation was calculated, six duplicates of it were printed out (on that poor ASR33 again :-). Pretty snowflakes. Final ASR33 trick: AC / MQ movies. Dirt simple little program that was toggled into the front panel of the 8/e. Displayed the 8 (for AC) or 12 (for MQ) bits read from the tape, then repeated. By laboriously punching tapes, we could produce little one-dimensional movies. Very minimalist art :-) Sometimes we'd even have narration. Chase scenes, love stories, all seven plots. Those were the days! -- ---------------------------------------------------- Gordon S. Hlavenka cgordon@vpnet.chi.il.us Vote straight ticket Procrastination party Dec. 3rd! From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!news.kpc.com!decwrl!csus.edu!syscube.ccs.csus.edu!sandhoff Thu May 20 19:40:18 EDT 1993 Article: 270 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,vmsnet.pdp11 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!sgiblab!news.kpc.com!decwrl!csus.edu!syscube.ccs.csus.edu!sandhoff From: sandhoff@csus.edu (John F. Sandhoff) Subject: Want some LINCtapes? Message-ID: <1993May20.192948.14062@csus.edu> Originator: sandhoff@syscube.ccs.csus.edu Sender: news@csus.edu Organization: California State University Sacramento Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 19:29:48 GMT Lines: 23 I have about a dozen LINCtape reels, some in their green plastic cases and some not. The tapes themselves I believe are still serviceable - they were used on a PDP-12 so very long ago... Anyways, I have no use for them. Anyone that is willing to cover shipping (which won't be much; if you know LINCtapes you know they aren't very big or heavy) is welcome to any and all. Please reply DIRECTLY if you're interested. And if these things are actually worth a half gazillion bucks, would somebody please tell me? I'd be unhappy to find that someone else made a killing off of my generosity.. John F. Sandhoff, University Network Support California State University Sacramento sandhoff@csus.edu p.s. I also have a 19 inch rack mount 32k swap disk. No typo: 32K! I even have the controller for it. Maybe the Boston Computer Museum would like a donation (assuming they're still around). Has anyone ever seen one of these mini-monsters? Is there a market for rare antique computer parts? Does anyone have a boat they need to anchor? :-) From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!wupost!uunet!news.uiowa.edu!news Fri May 21 15:02:03 EDT 1993 Article: 271 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!wupost!uunet!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Spafford's list of alt newsgroups Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1993May21.163804.26076@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 16:38:04 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 8 Gene Spafford's index of alt newsgroups has the following entry: > alt.sys.pdp8 There's an X Windows port in progress... Does he know something I don't know? Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!uunet!news.uiowa.edu!news Fri May 21 15:02:26 EDT 1993 Article: 272 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!uunet!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Power control cable Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1993May21.164310.26139@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 16:43:10 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 17 I've got a power-distribution-and-control box for my relay rack (not DEC made, but generally compatible), and I've got a rack mounted PDP-8/F in the rack. These need to be connected by a cable that has 3 pin Mate-N-Lock connectors on each end. I've got the parts to make the cable, but I'd like to know a few things about DEC's cable: 0) What is the DEC part number for this cable? 1) How long is it? 2) What wire gauge (approximately) do they use? 3) Far less important, what colors of wire do they use, and how are they bundled into a cable (wire-ties, vinyl sheath, ribbon cable?) Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Sun May 23 10:57:35 EDT 1993 Article: 273 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.sys.pdp8:273 comp.sys.dec.micro:2235 comp.sys.dec:14344 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,comp.sys.dec.micro,comp.sys.dec Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: PDP-8 et. al. archives Message-ID: <1993May23.145700.11272@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University Date: Sun, 23 May 1993 14:57:00 GMT The PDP-8 and DECmate archives are available via anonymous ftp from: sunsite.unc.edu in the directory: /pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8 and lower directories. One level up in the history directory is an Incoming directory for uploads. All are encouraged to submit anything relevant. There are also similar sections for other DEC machines such as PDP-10 and -11. There will be a directory called RX50 which will contain utilities for other machines such as PC's. The purpose of the utilities is to support various aspects of RX50 handling, such as formatting blank diskettes, image handling, etc. on other machines. Clearly this affects all users of the DECmate II, III and III+, but generally these utilities can be useful to other users of RX50 such as MicroVAX, Rainbow, PRO, Micro-11, etc. All are encouraged to participate. cjl From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Mon May 24 09:36:37 EDT 1993 Article: 274 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.sys.pdp8:274 comp.sys.dec.micro:2236 comp.sys.dec:14359 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,comp.sys.dec.micro,comp.sys.dec Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: PDP-8 et. al. archives Message-ID: <1993May24.133557.23168@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1993May23.145700.11272@news.columbia.edu> Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 13:35:57 GMT In article <1993May23.145700.11272@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >The PDP-8 and DECmate archives are available via anonymous ftp from: > >sunsite.unc.edu > >in the directory: > >/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8 > >and lower directories. One level up in the history directory is an >Incoming directory for uploads. All are encouraged to submit anything >relevant. There are also similar sections for other DEC machines such as >PDP-10 and -11. A slight update: The directory /pub/academic/computer-science/history/Incoming is for material that cannot be categorized easily under the other directories "deeper" in the archive. For PDP-8/DM-specific material, please use the directory: /pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/incoming (Note the case of Incoming in one place and incoming in the other!) cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!almach.caltech.edu!shoppa Tue May 25 22:33:16 EDT 1993 Article: 275 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.claremont.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!almach.caltech.edu!shoppa From: shoppa@almach.caltech.edu (TIM SHOPPA) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: WD211 assistance needed! Date: 25 May 1993 16:53 PST Organization: California Institute of Technology Lines: 46 Distribution: world Message-ID: <25MAY199316534765@almach.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: almach.caltech.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Hi! I have a WD211-sort box that I'm trying to get up and running. It has the following cards, in the box from top to bottom: Card My opinion of what it might be ------------------------------------------------------ M8320 Omnibus terminator M8317 8/E option board #2 M8316 8/E option board #1 (w/ bootstrap ROMS?) M8417 32K Mos RAM -lotsa empty slots- M8319 Quad serial lines M8357 RX02 controller M8357 RX02 controller M8310 8/E CPU (chained to board below) M8300 8/E CPU (chained to board above) M8330 8/E timing controller Also, I have a RX02 (known to work from trying it out on a PDP-11 system) connected to one of the RX02 controllers, (with the Dipswitches set to "first controller" position), while the other controller has nothing plugged into it (but is still sitting on the bus, with its dipswitches set to "second controller"). I also have a set of 4 PDP-8 diagnostic floppies. I have some of the WD211 print sets, and I've followed their instructions on setting the dipswitches on the boards. Everything seems to have come set correctly. When I power up the system (using the "Limited Function Panel") the power light comes on, the lights in my apartment dim a little bit, etc. However, the run light is off. Flipping the Panel Lock and Boot toggles on the "Limited Function Panel" don't apparently do anything, nor do the two switches on the top front of the cabinet labeled something like "boot" and "switch". Obviously, what I want to do is boot the thing off floppy. (The option board supposedly has the correct ROM.) However, the run light never comes on and the floppy heads never load. So is there anything obviously wrong or missing? I have no terminals connected to it yet. Is this necessary? (I know that some PDP-11's and Vaxen will halt if their console is disconnected.) I haven't hooked up a console yet because it appears that the console is expected to be a 20mA current loop device (I'm not sure about this!) Thanks! Tim (shoppa@almach.caltech.edu) From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!decwrl!pa.dec.com!sousa.tay.dec.com!human.enet.dec.com!supnik Tue May 25 23:23:33 EDT 1993 Article: 276 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!decwrl!pa.dec.com!sousa.tay.dec.com!human.enet.dec.com!supnik From: supnik@human.enet.dec.com (Bob Supnik) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Simulators: information sought Date: 25 May 1993 22:16:38 -0400 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 8 Sender: newsa@sousa.tay.dec.com Message-ID: <1tuju6$9eb@sousa.tay.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sousa.tay.dec.com Summary: Simulators: info sought Keywords: simulators, PDP I am writing simulators for the PDP-8, -11, and Nova. I am looking for pointers to past efforts (for example, all three were simulated as part of a DEC-10 program called MIMIC, sources now apparently lost). Please reply by Email. I'll post progress notes periodically. Bob Supnik >Supnik@human.enet.dec.com >All opinions expressed are those of a hardline microcoder >and do not reflect those of Digital Equipment Corporation From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Wed May 26 02:23:16 EDT 1993 Article: 277 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: PDP-8 archive update Message-ID: <1993May26.062226.14091@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 06:22:26 GMT The archives of alt.sys.pdp8 are now available via anonymous ftp from sunsite.unc.edu. They are available in the form of monthly files starting from September, 1992 through the present. (May 1993 will be included shortly.) The current directory for the a.s.p archives is: /pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/usenet/alt.sys.pdp8 Filenames are of the form: yymm.asp where yy is 92, 93 and mm is 01 for January through 12 for December. A 00-index file is provided in this and each pdp-8 directory to explain the corresponding contents, etc. It appears that some sites (primarily in Australia) are actually participating in a "split" of alt.sys.pdp8 where most of their traffic and the mainstream of a.s.p are never joined. Efforts to rejoin these sites with the main feed are ongoing; we may have to archive the Australian feed eventually. (There are far fewer articles there than on the main feed.) cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news Wed May 26 12:25:43 EDT 1993 Article: 278 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Subject: Paper Tape Sender: news@news.uiowa.edu (News) Message-ID: <1993May26.153808.3794@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 15:38:08 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 35 This morning, on my way in to work, one of my neighbors stopped me and handed me a tray of old paper tapes. He said they were for the old LINC that the U of Iowa medical school used to run; judging by what I learned by inspecting the contents, he's wrong -- but not far off. The tapes probably ran on the old PDP-12, using only the -8 half of the machine. The tray is a standard 8 compartment by one-inch-deep vacuum formed paper tape tray, in good condition, with a sticker on the tray that says: Item #6053 NORMAL AND ABNORMAL LUNG FUNCTION A Program for Independant Study Copyright (C) 1975 by American Thoracic Society The inserted letter says that the software is written in BASIC and has been tested on PDP-11 (RSTS-V4A and RT-11), PDP-8 (OS-8 and EDU25), CDC 6400 (Kronos), HP, IBM and NCR systems. The writeup says that the paper tapes were punched on a PDP-11, and they're the standard grey fanfold tape that DEC seems to have preferred, but not DEC brand paper tape. The tray contains 15 basic programs. What I appear to have gotten my hands on is antiquated, but not really antique, computer aided instructional materials. The state of the art in 1975 was far more advanced than BASIC, but this stuff appears to be representative of the state of the marketplace at the time. So, where does this kind of antiquated software belong? Short of tossing it out, are there any suggestions? Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner Wed May 26 12:29:14 EDT 1993 Article: 279 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!lasner From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Subject: Re: Paper Tape Message-ID: <1993May26.162855.13689@news.columbia.edu> Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News) Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) Organization: Columbia University References: <1993May26.153808.3794@news.uiowa.edu> Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 16:28:55 GMT In article <1993May26.153808.3794@news.uiowa.edu> jones@pyrite (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: > >So, where does this kind of antiquated software belong? Short of tossing >it out, are there any suggestions? I can read it in if you want on my functional PC04 on the 8/e. Then the paper-tape itself can be tossed, and the data compressed down to a likely mere 10K .ZIP file or something like that. cjl From news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!udecc.engr.udayton.edu!turner Wed May 26 22:09:43 EDT 1993 Article: 280 of alt.sys.pdp8 Xref: news.columbia.edu alt.folklore.computers:43935 alt.sys.pdp8:280 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,vmsnet.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: news.columbia.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!udecc.engr.udayton.edu!turner From: turner@udecc.engr.udayton.edu (Bob Turner) Subject: DIBBS-11 Software Organization: Univ. of Dayton, School of Engineering Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 01:57:16 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 16 I need to get in touch with anyone who has access to a machine (namely a PDP-11) running DEC DIBBS-11. I have a friend with a problem who needs to get access to a system with source code. Some financial compensation may be available. Anyone with information please send e-mail to turner@commsys.com or call me at 513-434-2738. Serious information only, please! For the unknowing (my self until recently), DIBBS-11 is a accounting system written in DiBOL. DIBOL is a database progromming enviornment and language. -- ==================================================================== Bob Turner Senior System Engineer 513-434-2738 turner@udecc.engr.udayton.edu CommSys, Inc. 77 West Elmwood Drive, Suite 101, Dayton, OH 45459