From lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu Thu Aug 4 22:01:36 EDT 1994 Article: 977 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!lasner From: lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu (Charles Lasner) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Archive files newly arrived Date: 31 Jul 1994 10:41:16 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 75 Message-ID: <31fv4c$fgv@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <3189mi$o4q@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <31cifb$cut@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu In article <31cifb$cut@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz>, wrote: > >OK, so if I have a machine with an RX50 drive (ie on an RQDX3 on a uVAX II) >that I can do block-for-block copies to, are these images any use to me? At least indirectly. The problem with teledisk format is that it's proprietary. IF you could figure out every nuance of the file format, you could recover the RX50 data, etc. However, teledisk format is far too complicated for this to be of any practical value, etc. It's used currently because hardware-qualifying PC's can be used to format media and create copies of RX50's. The program is readily available to these machines, albeit associated with a licensing problem, etc. In the future, a more open format will be used that encourages interchange, etc. DECmates, as well as most of DEC's systems with RX50's, cannot format media, thus the PC is a reasonable place to turn to format diskettes. There are numerous programs that can do it to at least a minimally viable extent. (However, there are no current programs that do *all* of what would be desirable! Unlike the -11 and VAX world, all of the other machines that use RX50 could benefit from alternate format options regarding stagger and interleave. The DECmate probably has the largest number of desirable variants that are system-specific, but even the Rainbow can benefit from some format variations. The -11 and VAX world can be congratulated for being the most consistent. All major systems there use the same software mapping of presumed standard media, thus there is no need for variants, etc.) So, if you want a PC channel to distribute your uVAX floppy RX50 images as binary files of the entire media, teledisk is a viable choice. For the present, this is what the DECmate group has done. In the future, the DECmate will be using a format that it can handle itself under OS/278. To avoid writing pragmatic and redundant utilities, such a program has to wait until a more fundamental problem is solved, namely the ability to do raw reads and writes through OS/278 handler calls. Present OS/278 restrictions are that handlers can only access tracks 01 onward on a diskette, and additionally, each sector involved in a transfer is read in 12-bit mode, which means that only 3/4 of the data is accessible. This is fine if all you want to access is the non-bootable file data area of an OS/278 non-system floppy. But to create a DECmate bootable diskette requires 100% of the data in every sector, including sectors 1-10 on tracks 0, 78, 79. Diskettes "alien" to the DECmate will tend to have other usage of these same tracks, and you dare not leave them out of a claimed copy of a diskette, etc. Current OS/278 has only kludgy limited ability to access the rest of the diskette data, consisting of internal routines in a few programs, none of which provide user access to anything resembling a generic call, etc. (In essence, a few programs have internal subroutines used as required. Quality of I/O handling varies widely, etc.) There is a solution to this problem which has been discussed elsewhere, namely to allow OS/278 to access P?S/8-written handlers, which include a handler being developed for complete access to RX50. Using an approach some people know as a "TSR" it is possible for OS/278 to get "help-out" RX50 support from P?S/8 handlers Once this is accomplished, RX50 files wihtout restrictions can be generated using a variety of methods on DECmate hardware. The principal candidate currently is PDP-8 ENCODE format which is documented in the Kermit-12 distribution. Other machines should be able to support ENCODE decoders/encoders allowing this to become a more general method of interchange, etc. Got any volunteers to write ENCODE utilities for other machines (VAX, PC, etc.)? cjl From don@rata.vuw.ac.nz Thu Aug 4 22:02:07 EDT 1994 Article: 978 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!EU.net!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!rata.vuw.ac.nz!don From: don@rata.vuw.ac.nz (Don Stokes) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Archive files newly arrived Date: 1 Aug 1994 11:21:55 GMT Organization: Victoria University of Wellington Lines: 21 Message-ID: <31ilsj$c7a@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> References: <3189mi$o4q@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <31cifb$cut@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> <31fv4c$fgv@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rata.vuw.ac.nz Charles Lasner wrote: >>OK, so if I have a machine with an RX50 drive (ie on an RQDX3 on a uVAX II) >>that I can do block-for-block copies to, are these images any use to me? > >At least indirectly. > >The problem with teledisk format is that it's proprietary. IF you could >figure out every nuance of the file format, you could recover the RX50 >data, etc. So is there any chance of just getting the raw disk image in ZIP or whatever format so that those of us who can do a bit-for-bit copy onto a real RX50 can use it without having to futz around with that brand-M bootstrap and a commercial package that I don't want or need? How about disk images of the DECmate backup format for thems of us with hard disk DECmates? -- Don Stokes, Network Manager, Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. don@vuw.ac.nz(work) don@zl2tnm.gen.nz(home) +64 4 495-5052 Fax+64 4 471-5386 From geneb@gemstar.gemstar.com Thu Aug 4 22:02:18 EDT 1994 Article: 979 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!nwnexus!gemstar!gemstar!gemstar From: geneb@gemstar.gemstar.com (Gene Buckle) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: looking for 11/23 and 11/73 software Date: 1 Aug 1994 20:56:28 -0700 Organization: GemStar Information Services 206-539-1257 Lines: 8 Message-ID: <31kg5c$s1v@gemstar.gemstar.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gemstar.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] If anyone could please direct me to a place to obtain software for the pdp 11/23 and /73 I'd much appriciate it. Any info on LSI-11 assembly would help as well. thx. Gene - KC7AFE From hermit@cats.UCSC.EDU Fri Aug 5 12:49:02 EDT 1994 Article: 980 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!darkstar.ucsc.edu!hermit From: hermit@cats.UCSC.EDU (William R. Ward) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: PDP8 on a chip? Date: 05 Aug 1994 04:30:59 GMT Organization: Computing and Telecommunications Services, UCSC Lines: 14 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu Does anyone out there know where we can get a PDP8-on-a-chip? Anyone ever heard of such a beast? Supposedly this is made by Intersil, part #IM6100; or Harris HM6100-2, HM6100A, or HM6100C-9. Anyone who knows about this, please drop me a line! --Bill. -- William R Ward __o __o 1803 Mission St. #339 Bay View Software and Consulting _-\<,-\<,_ Santa Cruz CA 95060 USA Voicemail +1 408/479-4072 (_)/---/ (_) hermit@cats.ucsc.edu Call my tree-structured BBS: +1 408/457-1357 (300-2400 baud, MNP/5, 8/N/1) (Finger hermit@ucscb.ucsc.edu for PGP public key) From tomk@csd.uu.se Fri Aug 5 12:50:28 EDT 1994 Article: 981 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!columba.udac.uu.se!news.uu.se!tomk From: tomk@csd.uu.se (Tom Karlsson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: OMNIBUS signals for semiconductor memory Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp8 Date: 05 Aug 1994 12:06:09 GMT Organization: CS, University of Uppsala, Sweden Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: kobra.csd.uu.se I'm constructing a 32K single board semiconductor memory for my PDP-8/m (including a 100Hz real time clock), but I'm not sure of really how to use the memory control signals from the OMNIBUS. I've read the descriptions in the 'PDP-8/a miniprocessor handbook' and the 'PDP-8/e,/f,/m small computer handbook' and have come to the conclusion that I need the following signals: EMA0-2, MA0-11, MD0-11, +5V, GND, ROM ADDRESS: These signals are no problem to me - they are used just as one could imagine :-) EMA and MA for the 15 bit address, MD for data, +5V and GND for power and the ROM ADDRESS for disablement when ROM memory is used in conjunction with the read/write memory. However, MEMORY WRITE, MD DIR and SOURCE or RETURN are the ones that I would need a better description of (what their timing looks like). Can I use SOURCE or RETURN as a memory select signal during both read and write ? Can I use MEMORY WRITE for the read/write signal or must I combine it with MD DIR in some manner ? A simple timing diagram would suffice... Thanks! /Tom -- | Tom Karlsson E-mail: tomk@Student.DoCS.UU.SE phone: +46 18 260097 | | Student of Computer Science @ Uppsala University, Sweden. | | Secretary of Update. E-mail: tomk@Update.UU.SE | | WWW: http://www.update.uu.se/~tomk/ | | "Intelligence is to do stupid things in a smart way" | From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Fri Aug 5 12:52:28 EDT 1994 Article: 982 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP8 on a chip? Date: 5 Aug 1994 14:56:16 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <31tjug$pb0@nexus.uiowa.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu From article , by hermit@cats.UCSC.EDU (William R. Ward): > > Does anyone out there know where we can get a PDP8-on-a-chip? Anyone > ever heard of such a beast? Well, the IM6100 was the predecessor of the Harris 6120 chip, and that chip was used by DEC in large quantities, both for their series of DECmate machine (sold mostly for word processing) and as a peripheral controller for other DEC machines. It's all in the FAQ, to be posted on the 8th, or you can get it from any of the following archive sites: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/alt.sys.pdp8 ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/dec-faq ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/pub/usenet/news.answers/alt.sys.pdp8 ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/docs http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/dec-faq/top.html Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu Fri Aug 5 13:34:29 EDT 1994 Article: 983 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!lasner From: lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu (Charles Lasner) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Archive files newly arrived Date: 5 Aug 1994 17:33:50 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 94 Message-ID: <31tt5u$g0g@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <3189mi$o4q@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <31cifb$cut@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> <31fv4c$fgv@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <31ilsj$c7a@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu In article <31ilsj$c7a@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz>, Don Stokes wrote: >Charles Lasner wrote: >>>OK, so if I have a machine with an RX50 drive (ie on an RQDX3 on a uVAX II) >>>that I can do block-for-block copies to, are these images any use to me? >> >>At least indirectly. >> >>The problem with teledisk format is that it's proprietary. IF you could >>figure out every nuance of the file format, you could recover the RX50 >>data, etc. > >So is there any chance of just getting the raw disk image in ZIP or whatever >format so that those of us who can do a bit-for-bit copy onto a real RX50 >can use it without having to futz around with that brand-M bootstrap and >a commercial package that I don't want or need? > There are several efforts in this direction. teledisk represents a poor choice due to all of its "baggage" etc. but it does exist. One such effort involves creating (on a PC) a format that is just about what you want. The file starts with a header block that describes the disk geometry. The rest of the file is the raw 8-bit data in the normal order of the disk. Thus, in the RX50 case it would be the 800 sectors of the RX50 in the order track 0 sectors 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 then track 1, etc. RX50 would be a normal case, but it's not geared specifically to it. Note that this effort includes no form of compression, which admittedly is easier to deal with for your purposes. but since storage is a concern for an archive, files should be compressed, or should be self-compressing. PDP-8 ENCODE format is a good step in that direction. I would like to see others implement encoders and decoders of it for other machines, etc. Eventually the DECmate version will be viable; the PDP-8 version is currently. >How about disk images of the DECmate backup format for thems of us with >hard disk DECmates? Not a bad idea. However, there is a problem: you have to specify a volume size for the backup set. Do you want volumes created that barely serve as the data itself, or do you want volumes created with loads of empty space past the data that represents someone's notion of a good size for a volume? Additionally, there is the whole question of whether the data is also a bootable volume since invariably the data is in the format of some specific OS such as OS/278, COS, WPS, CP/M-80, MS-DOS, etc. Consider a small example: There is a program now available on sunsite called GTE that makes the DECmates II and up into a VT-240/241 if you have the relevant graphics hardware and optional color monitor. Even without the extra hardware, you still get a good VT-220 emulator with a whole lot less bugs than the slushware terminal emulator, etc. Consider all of the possibilities for archiving: 1) It's already there in a .zip of a teledisk file of the release/install disk. The user has to put the program up and deal with it, etc. 2) Someone could install it and thus there is a hard disk volume or diskette copy. We could archive the bootable diskette, but it's not worth it because it's so easy to create one from the install diskette, except perhaps on (your!) DECmate III+. However, a hard disk volume version can be created on either a DECmate II w/HD or on the DM III+. You could archive a backup copy of that volume. However, it turns out that this is not necessarily the best choice. The program can be transferred directly to an exiting OS/278 system and run with "R GTE" because in reality, the bootable volume or diskette is really a self-starting OS/278 stripdown system, etc. Additionally, the install program creates GTE on a volume slightly too large, thus disk space gets wasted. A knowledgeable user can create their own custom size volume with OS/278 on it, then move GTE.SV there and do it themselves as a minimal size application, etc. So, which of the several forms the above suggest would you want to be in the archive? Note that the average user can navigate through the provided install diskette now archived, etc. The results are likely acceptable to all but sophisticated users, etc. Other programs will tend to suggest even more complicated configurations. I'm open to any reasonable solution. > >-- >Don Stokes, Network Manager, Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. >don@vuw.ac.nz(work) don@zl2tnm.gen.nz(home) +64 4 495-5052 Fax+64 4 471-5386 cjl From jatwood@netcom.com Mon Aug 8 15:20:27 EDT 1994 Article: 984 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!jatwood From: jatwood@netcom.com (John Atwood) Subject: WT/78, RX02, DecWriter IV Available Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Distribution: usa Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 15:48:26 GMT Lines: 44 I have the following DEC equipment available: VT/78-MA Desktop PDP-8 RX-02 Dual 8" Floppy Drive DecWriter IV two sets of boot floppies From the pdp8 models faq: >Date of introduction: 1978 >Date of withdrawal: 1980 (Displaced by the DECmate) >Also known as: DECstation 78 > >Technology: Intersil 6100 microprocessor, packaged in a VT52 case. The > 6100 processor was able to run at 4 MHz, but in the VT78, it was > only clocked at 2.2 MHz because of the speed of the DRAM used and > the deliberate use of graded out chips. > >Reason for introduction: Using TTL MSI and LSI components, DEC could > pack their CPU into vacant space in a standard terminal case, > allowing PDP-8 systems to compete with personal computers in the > small business and office automation market. This was a natural > follow-on to the desk-mounted workstation configurations in which > the PDP-8/A was already being sold. > ... The system appears to work (it boots up and runs programs), however, the ribbon on the DecWriter IV is dried-out. This system is available to anyone in the S.F. Bay area. The only requirement is that you make a donation (tax-deductable) of whatever amount you feel it is worth to: Wat Buddhanusorn, a Thai Buddhist temple in Fremont, CA. This system was donated to the temple some years ago, but was never really used. They now use both Macintosh and PCs. ***> I will deliver the system anywhere in or around the S.F. Bay area! If you are interested, contact me at: jatwood@netcom.com, or FAX me at: 408 985-2006. - John Atwood -- **************************************** John Atwood jatwood@netcom.COM **************************************** From jones@cs.uiowa.edu Mon Aug 8 15:21:08 EDT 1994 Article: 985 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.answers,news.answers Subject: PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options (posted every other month) Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp8 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 94 08:08:08 GMT Organization: Computer Science, University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa, USA Lines: 1317 Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Distribution: world Expires: 8 Oct 1994 08:08:08 GMT Message-ID: <325b0v$2ke@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Summary: Descriptions of all models of the DEC PDP-8 computer. Those posting to alt.sys.pdp8 should read this. Keywords: FAQ DEC PDP 8 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.sys.pdp8:985 alt.answers:3805 news.answers:25312 Archive-name: dec-faq/pdp8-models Last-modified: Aug 5, 1994 Frequently Asked Questions about DEC PDP-8 models and options. By Douglas Jones, jones@cs.uiowa.edu (with help from many folks) Sites known to carry FTPable copies of this file: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/alt.sys.pdp8 ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/dec-faq ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/pub/usenet/news.answers/alt.sys.pdp8 ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/docs Automatic translations of this document to HTML format (as used by World Wide Web) are available from: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/dec-faq/top.html This posting conforms to RFC1153 USENET digest format (with exceptions due to the fact that it is not really a digest). The purpose of this document is to supplement the material in the primary "Frequently Asked Questions about the PDP-8" file with more detailed information about the hardware and options of the different models of the PDP-8 sold by DEC. Although this document is something of a history of the DEC PDP-8 family, the primary purpose of this document is as a guide and general outline to the PDP-8 models and options likely to be encountered by those involved in collecting and restoring such systems. Contents: What is a PDP-5? What is a PDP-8? What is a LINC-8? What is a PDP-8/S? What is a PDP-8/I? What is a PDP-8/L? What is a PDP-12? What is a PDP-8/E? What is a PDP-8/F? What is a PDP-8/M? What is a PDP-8/A? What is a VT78? What is a DECmate I? What is a DECmate II? What is a DECmate III? What is a DECmate III+? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: What is a PDP-5? Date of introduction: Aug 11, 1963, unveiled at WESCON. Date of withdrawal: early 1967. Total production run: 116. Price: $27,000 Technology: The PDP-5 was built with DEC System Modules, the original line of transistorized logic modules sold by DEC. The supply voltages were +10 and -15 volts, with logic levels of -3 (logic 1) and 0 (logic 0). Logic was packaged on boards that were about 4.75 inches high with each card mounted in a metal frame with a 22 pin edge connector. Input output devices were connected to the daisy-chained I/O bus using military-style armored cables and connectors. Use of toggle switches (as opposed to slide switches) on the front panel was another vestige of military-style design. Reason for introduction: This machine was inspired by the success of the CDC-160, Seymour Cray's 12 bit minicomputer, and by the success of the LINC, a machine that was built by DEC customers out of System modules. These demonstrated that there was a market for a small inexpensive computer, and from the start, DEC's advertisements were aimed at this market. "Now you can own the PDP-5 computer for what a core memory alone used to cost: $27,000", ran one 1964 ad. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8 outperformed the PDP-5, and did so for a lower price. Compatability: The core of the PDP-8 instruction set is present, but memory location zero is the program counter, and interrupts are handled differently. The Group 1 OPR rotate instructions cannot be combined with IAC or CMA; this limits the ability of the PDP-5 to support code from later models. The machine does not support 3 cycle data-break (DMA transfers using memory to hold buffer address and word-count information), so many later PDP-8 peripherals can not be used on the PDP-5. In addition, DMA transfers are not allowed outside the program's current 4K data field, severely limiting software compatability on systems with over 4K of memory where either interrupts or software initiated changes to the data field during a transfer would cause chaos. Standard configuration: CPU with 1K or 4K of memory (2K and 3K versions were not available). Peripherals: An extended arithmetic element (EAE) was available; this was an I/O device, using IOT instructions to evoke EAE operations. As a result, it was not compatable with the later PDP-8 EAEs. In addition, machines with the EAE option had a different front panel from those without. The type 552 DECtape control and type 555 dual DECtape transports were originally developed for the PDP-5 and contemporaneous DEC systems such as the PDP-6. After the PDP-8 was introduced, DEC offered a bus converter that allowed the PDP-5 to support standard PDP-8 negibus ueripherals, so long as they avoided using 3-cycle data break transfers. The standard 804 PDP-8 expander box was frequently sold as an upgrade to PDP-5 systems. Survival: Do any PDP-5 systems survive? ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8? Date of introduction: 1965 (Unveiled March 22, in New York). Date of withdrawal: 1968. Total production run: 1450. Also known as: Classic PDP-8 (to point out lack of a model suffix) Straight-8 (Again, points out the lack of a model suffix) PCP-88, an OEM label, used by Foxboro Corporation. Price: $18500 Technology: Mostly standard DEC R-series logic modules; these were originally discrete component transistor logic, but around the time the PDP-8 was introduced, DEC introduced the Flip Chip, a hybrid diode/resistor "integrated circuit" on a ceramic substrate. These could directly replace some of the discrete components on some logic modules, and DEC soon began to refer to all R-series modules as flip-chip modules; they even advertised the PDP-8 as an integrated circuit computer. A typical flip-chip module, the R111, had three 2-input nand gates and cost $14, with no price change from 1965 to 1970. Some special dual height R-series modules were designed specifically for the PDP-8. S and B-series logic modules were also used; these are similar to their R-series cousins, but with different speed/fanout tradeoffs in their design. Some logic modules have trimmers that must be tuned to the context, making replacement of such modules more complex than simply swapping boards. As with the system modules used in the PDP-5, the supply voltages were +10 and -15 volts and the logic levels were -3 (logic 1) and 0 (logic 0). Logic was packaged on boards that were 2.5 inches wide by 5 inches long. The card edge connector had 18 contacts on 1/8 inch centers. Some double height cards were used; these had two card edge connectors and were 5 1/8 inches high. Machine wrapped wire-wrap technology was used on the backplane using 24-gauge wire. The "negibus" or negative logic I/O bus used -3 and 0 volt logic levels in 92 ohm coaxial cable, with 9 coaxial cables bundled per connector card and 6 bundles making up the basic bus. 5 (later 4) more bundles were required to support data-break (DMA) transfers. The total bus length was limited to 50 feet, and bus termination was generally kluged in with 100 ohm resistors clipped or wrapped into the backplane, although a bus terminator card was sometimes used. Some time after the first year of production, flat ribbon cable made of multiple coaxial cables was used, and later still, shielded flat stripline cable was used (but this cut the allowed bus length by a factor of two). Core memory was used, originally made by FERROXCUBE, with a 1.5 microsecond cycle time, giving the machine an add time of 3 microseconds. 4K of core occupied an aluminum box 6 inches on a side and needed numerous auxiliary flip-chips and for support, as well as an array of boards from the core vendor. It is worth noting that the PDP-8 was about as fast as was practical with the logic technology used; only by using tricks like memory interleaving or pipelining could the machine have been made much faster. Reason for introduction: This machine was inspired by the success of the PDP-5 and by the realization that, with their new Flip-Chip technology, DEC could make a table-top computer that could be powered by a single standard wall outlet; of course, adding any peripherals quickly increased the power requirement! Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8/I was less expensive, and after initial production difficulties, it equalled the performance of the PDP-8. Compatability: This machine defines the core of the PDP-8 instruction set, but with restrictions that were lifted on later machines. The Group 1 OPR instruction IAC cannot be combined with any of the rotate instructions. If RAR and RAL or RTR and RTL are combined, the results are unpredictable (simultaneous set and reset of bits of AC results in metastable behavior). The IOT 0 instruction was used for the internal type 189 ADC, and not for the later CAF (clear all flags) instruction. As a result, if the ADC option was not present, IOT 6004 (or microcoded variants) would hang the machine. The SWP instruction (exchange AC and MQ) never works, even if the extended arithmetic element is present. This works on later models when the EAE is present, although it was only documented with the introduction of the PDP-8/E. Finally, the EAE lacks the SCL (shift count load) instruction that is present on later models. On machines with 8K or more, an attempt to change the data field to a non-existant field caused a bizarre double-indirect and skip instruction execution that must be accounted for in memory diagnostics. Standard configuration: The PDP-8 was sold as a CPU with 4K of memory, a 110 baud current loop teletype interface and an ASR 33 Teletype. In addition, the standard in-cabinet logic includes support for the full negibus interface, including data-break (DMA) transfers. Both a rack-mount model with rosewood trim and an elegant plexiglass enclosed table-top configuration were standard. Under the skin, the basic machine occupies a volume 33 inches high by 19 inches wide by 22 inches deep. The two halves of the backplane are mounted vertically, like the covers of a book, with the spine in back and circuit modules inserted from the two sides. Sliding the CPU out of the relay rack or removing the plexiglass covers allows the backplane to swung open to access the wires-wrap. Expandability: In-cabinet options include the type 182 extended arithmetic element (EAE), the type 183 memory extension control subsystem, and the type 189 low performance analog to digital converter (ADC). Prewired backplane slots were reserved for all of these. Expansion beyond 4K of memory requires rack space for the rack-mounted type 184 memory module; each such module adds one 4K field of memory, up to a maximum of 32K. The rack-mount CPU occupied a large part of one rack, allowing room for a single type 184 memory expansion module below the CPU; generally, a second rack was needed for added peripherals or memory. At the end of the production run, some PDP-8 systems were sold with PDP-8/I memory, allowing room for an additional 4K without need for an expansion chassis. These nonstandard machines were very difficult to maintain! Peripherals: At the time of introduction, the following negibus peripherals were offered. -- Type 750C high speed paper tape reader and control. -- Type 75E high speed paper tape punch and control. -- Type 138E analog to digital converter. -- Type 139E analog multiplexor. -- Type 34D oscilloscope display control (dual digital to analog). -- Type 350B incremental (CalComp) plotter control. -- Type 451 card reader and control. -- Type 450 card punch control for IBM Type 523 punch. -- Type 64 (later 645) Mohawk line printer and control. -- Type RM08 serial magnetic drum system (up to 256K words). -- Type 552 DECtape control (for type 555 DECtape drives). -- Type 57A magnetic tape control (IBM type 729 drive). -- Type 580 magnetic tape system. By 1966, the following peripherals had been added to the line: -- Type AA01A three-channel digital to analog converter. -- Type CR01C card reader control. -- Type TC01 DECtape control for up to 8 TU55 transports. -- Type 251 drum (8-256 tracks, 8 sectors/track, 128 words/sector). -- Type 645 line printer control. -- Type 680 data communications system (allows 64 teletypes). By 1967, the following peripherals had been added to the line: -- Type AF01 analog to digital converter and multiplexor. -- Type AX08 parallel digital input port. -- Type 338 Programmed Buffered Display (vector graphics). By 1968, the following new peripheral had been added: -- Type DF32 fixed head disk system (32K to 256K words). -- Type BE01 OEM version of the TC01 (no blinking lights). -- Type BE03 dual TU55 drive for the TC01 or BE01. Finally, as DEC abandoned the negibus, they introduced the DW08B negibus to posibus converter so newer posibus peripherals could be used on older negibus machines, and the DW08A posibus to negibus converter to allow use of old peripherals on new machines. Survival: Many classic PDP-8 systems survive to this day ------------------------------ Subject: What is a LINC-8? Date of introduction: 1966 (during or before March). Date of withdrawal: 1969 Total production run: 142. Price: $38,500 Technology: DEC Flip Chip modules, as in the PDP-8, with a LINC CPU partially reimplemented in Flip Chips and partially emulated with PDP-8 instructions. (The original LINC was built from the same System Modules used in the PDP-5.) Compatability: The PDP-8 part of the machine was identical to the PDP-8. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-12 accomplished the same goals at a lower cost. Standard configuration: The combined PDP-8/LINC CPU, plus 4K of memory was central to the system. The set of peripherals bundled with the machine was impressive: -- An ASR 33 Teletype modified for the LINC character set. -- Two LINCtape drives. -- 8 analog to digital converter channels with knob inputs. -- Another 8 ADC channels with jack inputs. -- 6 programmable relay outputs, good up to 60 Hz. -- 1 Tektronix 560 oscilliscope, somewhat modified. The X and Y axis control for the scope came from DACs attached to the LINC's AC and MB registers, respectively. Expandability: In addition to standard PDP-8 peripherals, up to 3 additional pairs of LINCtape drives could be added, for a total of 8 drives. The design of the type 555 dual DECtape transport was based on that of the LINCtape drive. Up to 2 additional ranks of 8 ADC channels could be added. Remote oscilliscope could be added. Survival: One LINC-8 is known to be in operable condition today. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/S? Date of introduction: 1966 (Unveiled, Aug 23, WESCON, Los Angeles). Date of withdrawal: 1970. Total production run: 1024. Price: $10,000 Technology: DEC Flip Chip modules and core memory, as in the PDP-8. Unlike the PDP-8, the PDP-8/S memory module was mounted between a pair of quad-height single-width boards that plugged into the standard flip-chip sockets (this was sold separately as the H201 core memory unit, at $2000 for 4K by 13 bits). Reason for introduction: This machine was developed as a successful exercise in minimizing the cost of the machine. It was the least expensive general purpose computer made with second generation (discrete transistor) technology, and it was one of the smallest such machines to be mass produced (a number of smaller machines were made for aerospace applications). It was also incredibly slow, with a 36 microsecond add time, and some instructions taking as much as 78 microseconds. By 1967, DEC took the then unusual step of offering this machine for off the shelf delivery, with one machine stocked in each field office available for retail sale. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8/L vastly outperformed the PDP-8/S, and and it did so at a lower price. Compatability: The core of the PDP-8 instruction set is present, but there are a sufficient number of incompatabilities that, as with the PDP-5, many otherwise portable "family of 8" programs will not run on the PDP-8/S. Perhaps the worst incompatability is that the Group 1 OPR instruction CMA cannot be combined with any of the rotate instructions; as with the PDP-8, IAC also cannot be combined with rotate. Standard configuration: CPU with 4K of memory, plus PT08 110 baud current loop teletype interface and teletype. Both a rack-mount and table-top versions were sold (both 9" high by 19" wide by 20"? deep). The rack mount version included slides so it could be pulled out for maintenance. Expandability: The CPU supported the standard PDP-8 negibus, but I/O bandwidth was 1/5 that of the PDP-8. Thus, most, but not all PDP-8 peripherals could be used. A few DEC peripherals such as the DF32 came with special options such as interleaving to slow them down for compatability with the PDP-8/S. The speed problems were such that there was never any way to attach DECtape to this machine. Survival: Because they were so slow, PDP-8/S systems were quickly discarded as newer machines became available for comparable prices; thus, they are less common today than the Classic PDP-8, even though comparable numbers were made. A few survive in working condition. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/I? Date of introduction: 1968 (announced before December '67) Date of withdrawal: 1971. Total production run: 3698. Technology: DEC M-series logic modules, called M-series flip-chips as the term flip-chip was applied to the module format instead of to DEC's hybrid integrated circuits. M-series modules used TTL chips, with a +5 volt supply, packaged on the same board format used with the original flip-chips, but with double-sided card-edge connectors (36 contacts instead of 18). Modules were limited to typically 4 SSI ICs each. The M113, a typical M-series module, had 10 2-input nand gates and cost $23 in 1967 (the price fell to $18 in 1970). Wire-wrapped backplanes used 30-gauge wire. The PDP-8/I, as originally sold, supported the then-standard PDP-8 negibus. 4K words of core were packaged in a 1 inch thick module made of 5 rigidly connected 5 by 5 inch two-sided printed circuit boards. Connectors and support electronics occupied an additional 32 backplane slots. Nominally, the core memory (which, curiously, used a negative logic interface!) was supposed to run at a 1.5 microsecond cycle time, but many early PDP-8/I systems were delivered running at a slower rate because of memory quality problems. DEC went through many vendors in the search for good memory! The memory interface was asynchronous, allowing the CPU to delay for slow memory. DEC continued to make the classic PDP-8 until the problems with memory speed were solved. Reason for introduction: This machine was developed in response to the introduction of DIP component packaging of TTL integrated circuits. This allowed a machine of about the same performance as the original PDP-8 to fit in about half the volume and sell for a lower price. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8/E made slight performance improvements while undercutting the price of the PDP-8/I. Compatability: The core of the PDP-8 instruction set is present, and unlike the original PDP-8, IAC can be combined with rotate in a single microcoded Group 1 OPR instruction. Combined RAR and RAL or RTR and RTL produce the logical and of the expected results from each of the combined shifts. If the extended arithmetic element is present, the SWP (exchange AC and MQ) instruction works, but this was not documented. On large memory configurations, memory fetches from a nonexistant memory field take about 30 microseconds (waiting for a bus timeout) and then they return either 0000 or 7777 depending on the memory configuration and the field that was addressed. A front panel bug prevented continue after load-address without first clearing the machine. Standard configuration: CPU with 4K of memory, plus 110 baud current loop teletype interface. Pedestal, table-top and rack-mount versions were made. The pedestal mounted version was futuristic looking; the table-top version split the pedistal, with the CPU on the table and the power supply (the base of the pedistal) on the floor beside the table. The standard rack-mounted version had the power supply bolted to the right side of the rack while the CPU, mounted on slides, slid out of the left side of the rack. Expandability: 4K of memory could be added internally, and additional memory could be added externally using a rack-mounted MM8I memory expansion module for each 4K or 8K addition over 8K. The backplane of the PDP-8/I was prewired to hold a Calcomp plotter interface, with the adjacent backplane slot reserved for the cable connection to the plotter. There may be other built-in options. Initially, the CPU was sold with bus drivers for the PDP-8 negibus, allowing this machine to support all older DEC peripherals, but later machines were sold with posibus interfaces, and many older machines were converted in the field. A posibus to negibus converter, the DW08A, allowed use of all older PDP-8 peripherals, with small modifications. The change from negibus to posibus during the period of PDP-8/I production leads to confusion because surviving CPUs and peripherals may have any of three I/O bus configurations: Negibus, early posibus, or final posibus. The early posibus used the same connectors and cables as the negibus, with only 9 conductors per connector, while the final posibus used both sides of the connector paddles for 18 bus lines per connector. Y-shaped cables for converting from one physical bus layout to the other were available. To add to this confusion, some negibus PDP-8/I systems were rewired to use 18 conductor posibus cables with negative logic! Eventually, an add-on box was sold that allowed PDP-8/E (OMNIBUS) memory to be added to a PDP-8/I. Additionally, Fabritek sold a 24K memory box for the 8/I and PDP-12. Survival: Many PDP-8/I systems are in operating condition. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/L? Date of introduction: 1968 (announced before August '68) Date of withdrawal: 1971. Total production run: 3902. Price: $8,500 Technology: DEC M-series flip Chip modules, as in the PDP-8/I, with the same core memory as the 8/I, but with a memory cycle cycle of 1.6 microseconds to avoid the speed problems that plagued early -8/I systems. The positive I/O bus, or posibus, was a 100 ohm bus clamped between 0 and 3 volts with TTL drivers and receivers. This was packaged with 18 signal lines per 2-sided interconnect cable, using double-sided shielded mylar ribbon cable in most cases. Electrically, coaxial cable could be used, but the slots in the CPU box were too small for this. Reason for introduction: This machine was developed as a moderately successful exercise using M-series logic to produce a lower cost but moderately fast machine. The idea was to cut costs by limiting provisions for expansion. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8/E made performance improvements while slightly undercutting the price of the PDP-8/L. Compatability: The core of the PDP-8 instruction set is present, but all Group 3 OPR instructions are no-ops, even the Group 3 version of the CLA instruction. This is because there was no provision made for adding an EAE to this machine. Microcoding RAR and RAL together works as in the PDP-8/I. Finally, a new front panel feature was added, the protect switch. When thrown, this makes the last page of the last field of memory read-only (to protect your bootstrap code). The instruction to change the data field on an 8/L becomes a no-op when the destination data field is non-existant; on all other machines, attempts to address non-existant fields are possible. One option for expanding the 8/L was to add a box that allowed 8/E memory modules to be added to the 8/L; when this was done, access to nonexistant data fields becomes possible and always returns 0000 on read. Standard configuration: A CPU with 4K of memory, plus 110 baud current loop teletype interface was standard. Both rack-mount and table-top versions were sold (both 9" high by 19" wide by 21" deep). The backplane was on top, with modules plugged in from the bottom. The rack-mount version could be slid out for maintenance. Expandability: The CPU supported a new bus standard, the PDP-8 posibus. There is little space for in-box peripherals, but an expander box with the same volume as the CPU was available, the BA08A; this was prewired to hold an additional 4K of memory and to support in-box peripheral interfaces for such devices as a Calcomp plotter interface, a card-reader interface, a 4 line asynch terminal interface, a real-time clock, and more. DEC eventually offered the BM12L, an 8K expansion box that is essentially the same as the MM8I, but using positive logic and thus incompatable with the -8/I and -12. This allowed a total memory of 12K on a PDP-8/L. This contains precisely the modules needed to upgrade a 4K PDP-8/I or PDP-12 to an 8K machine, or to populate an MM8I box to add 8K of additional memory to an 8/I or PDP-12. Finally, DEC eventually offered a box allowing PDP-8/E (OMNIBUS) memory to be used with the PDP-8/L. PDP-8/L configurations with over 8K of memory were awkward because the front panel only showed one bit of the extended memory address. As a result, extra lights and switches for the additional bits of the memory address were mounted on the front of the memory expander boxes for the large configurations. A variety of posibus peripherals were introduced, most of which were built with the option of negibus interface logic (the -P and -N suffixes on these new peripherals indicated which was which). Many early PDP-8/L systems were sold with DW08A bus level converters to run old negibus peripherals. Posibus peripherals introduced after the PDP-8/L (and also used with posibus versions of the PDP-8/I) included: -- The TC08 DECtape controller (for 8 TU55 or 4 TU56). -- The DF32D fixed head disk controller (a posibus DF32). -- The FPP-12 floating point processor. -- The TR02 simple magnetic tape control. -- The RK08 disk subsystem, 4 disk packs, 831,488 words each. Survival: Many PDP-8/L systems are in operating condition. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-12? Date of introduction: 1969 (February or earlier). Date of withdrawal: 1973. Total production run: 3500? Price: $27,900 Technology: DEC M-series flip Chip modules, as in the PDP-8/I. Reason for introduction: This machine was developed as a follow-up to the LINC-8. Originally it was to be called the LINC-8/I, but somehow it got its own number. In effect, it was a PDP-8/I with added logic to allow it to execute the LINC instruction set. Reason for withdrawal: The LAB-8/E and the LAB-11 (a PDP-8/E and a PDP-11/20 with lab peripherals) eventually proved the equal of the PDP-12 in practice, and LINC compatability eventually proved to be of insufficient value to keep the machine alive in the marketplace. Compatability: This machine is fully compatable with the PDP-8/I, with additional instructions to flip from PDP-8 mode to LINC mode and back. IOT 0 could enable the API, causing trouble with later PDP-8 code that assumes IOT 0 is "Clear all flags". Also, the DECtape instruction DTLA (6766) becomes part of a stack-oriented extension to the instruction set, PUSHJ, on late model (or field updated) machines with the KF12-B backplane. The PDP-12 supported trapping of those LINC functions that were emulated by software on the LINC-8. This allowed it to run many LINC-8 bootable systems (but not all, due mostly incompatabilities in LINKtape support), and it allowed such things as emulation of LINKtape instructions for reading and writing disk. The TC12F Linktape controller could, with appropriate software, read or write DECtape. This support is unreliable, and is not software compatable with the TC01 or TC08 DECtape controller. Standard configuration: PDP-8/LINC CPU with 4K of memory, plus 110 baud current loop interface, plus output relay registers. In addition, the standard configuration included either two TU55 or one TU56 drive, with a PDP-12 only controller allowing it to handle LINCtape. In addition, a 12" scope was always included, with a connector that can connect to a second scope. Expandability: An analog to digital converter and multiplexor was needed to fully support knob-oriented LINC software. Other options included: -- the KW12 programmable lab clock. -- additional TU55 or TU56 drives (up to 8 transports). -- the BA12 expander box -- the PC05 paper tape reader punch (needs the BA12). Fabritek made a 24K memory box that could be added to a PDP-8/I or PDP-12. Survival: A few PDP-12 systems are in operating condition. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/E? Date of introduction: 1970 (during or before August). Date of withdrawal: 1978. Also known as: Industrial-8 (with a red color scheme) LAB-8/E (with a green color scheme) Price: $7,390 Technology: SSI and MSI TTL logic were used on these boards, and the entire CPU fit on 3 boards. Nominally, these were DEC M-series flip Chip modules, but in a new large format, quad-high (10.5 inch), extended-length (9 inch, including card-edge connector, excluding handles). The terms used for board height and length are based on the original working assumption that all flip-chips were plugged horizontally into a vertially mounted card-edge connector. On the PDP-8/E, the cards were plugged vertically down into a horizontally mounted connector, so many users incorrectly refer to these boards as quad-wide double-high. Interconnection between boards was through a new bus, the OMNIBUS. This eliminated the need for a wire-wrapped backplane, since all slots in the bus were wired identically. A new line of peripheral interfaces was produced, most being single cards that could be plugged directly into the inside the main enclosure. These included a set of posibus adapters allowing use of older peripherals on the new machine. Interboard connectors were needed for some multiboard options, including the CPU and memory subsystems. These used standard 36-pin backplane connectors on the opposite side of the board from the backplane. Some boards, notably memory boards, had a total of 8 connector fingers, 4 for the omnibus and 4 for interboard connectors. The core memory cycle time was 1.2 or 1.4 microseconds, depending on whether a read-modify-write cycle was involved (a jumper would slow all cycles to 1.4 microseconds). A 4K core plane was packaged on a single quad-wide double-high board, with most of the drive electronics packed onto two adjacent boards. Soon after the machine was introduced, an 8K core plane was released in the same format. Reason for introduction: The cost of the PDP-8/I and PDP-8/L was dominated by the cost of the interconnect wiring, and this cost was high as a result of the use of small circuit boards. By packing a larger number of chips per board, similar function could be attained in a smaller volume because less interboard communication was required. The PDP-8/E exploited this to achieve a new low in cost while attaining a new high in performance. Reason for withdrawal: This machine was slowly displaced by the PDP-8/A as the market for large PDP-8 configurations declined in the face of pressure from 16 bit mini and microcomputers. Compatability: As with the PDP-8/I and PDP-8/L, there are no limits on the combination of IAC and rotate instructions. Unlike the early machines, basic Group 3 OPR operations for loading and storing the MQ register work even if there is no extended arithmetic element. Finally, a new instruction was added, BSW; this swaps the left and right bytes in AC, and is encoded as a Group 1 OPR instruction using the "double the shift count bit". An odd quirk of this machine is that the RAL RAR combination ands the AC with the op-code, and the RTR RTL combination does an effective address computation loading the high 5 bits of AC with the current page and the lower bits of AC with the address field of the instruction itself! The EAE has a new mode, mode B. Previous EAE designs were single-mode. Mode B supports a large set of 24 bit operations and a somewhat more rational set of shift operations than the standard EAE. All prior EAE designs would hang on the microcoded CLA NMI (clear/normalize) instruction applied to a nonzero AC. This instruction is redefined to be a mode changing instruction on the 8/E. Standard configuration: A CPU with 4K of memory, plus 110 baud current loop teletype interface. Both a rack-mount table-top versions were sold (both 9" high by 19" wide by 21" deep). The rack mount version was mounted on slides for easy maintenance. The OMNIBUS backplane was on the bottom, with boards inserted from the top. The standard OMNIBUS backplane had 20 slots, with no fixed assignments, but the following conventional uses: -- KC8E programmer's console (lights and switches) -- M8300 \_ KK8E CPU registers -- M8310 / KK8E CPU control -- -- -- M833 - Timing board (system clock) -- M865 - KL8E console terminal interface. -- -- -- -- space for more peripherals -- -- -- M849 - shield to isolate memory from CPU -- G104 \ -- H220 > MM8E 4K memory -- G227 / -- -- -- space for more memory -- -- M8320 - KK8E Bus terminator Most of the early boards with 3 digit numbers were defective in one way or another, and the corrected boards added a trailing zero. Thus, the M833 was generally replaced with an M8330, and the M865 was replaced with the M8650. Expandability: The following are among the OMNIBUS boards that could be added internally: -- M8650 - KL8E RS232 or current loop serial interface. -- M8340 \_ Extended arithmetic element. -- M8341 / (must be attached in two slots adjacent to CPU. -- M8350 - KA8E posibus interface (excluding DMA transfers). -- M8360 - KD8E data break interface (one per DMA device). -- M837 - KM8E memory extension control (needed for over 4K). -- M840 - PC8E high speed paper tape reader-punch interface. -- M842 - XY8E X/Y plotter control. -- M843 - CR8E card reader interface. There were many other internal options. There was room in the basic box for another 20 slot backplane; taking into account the 2 slots occupied by the M935 bridge between the two backplanes, this allowed 38 slots, and a second box could be added to accomodate another 38 slot backplane, bridged to the first box by a pair of BC08H OMNIBUS extension cables. Given a M837 memory extension control, additional memory could be added in increments of 4K by adding G104, H220, G227 triplets. The suggested arrangement of boards on the OMNIBUS always maintained the M849 shield between memory other options. The one exception was that the M8350 KA8E and M8360 KD8E external posibus interfaces were typically placed at the end of the OMNIBUS right before the terminator. The following options were introduced later, and there were many options offered by third party suppliers. -- G111 \ -- H212 > MM8EJ 8K memory -- G233 / -- M8357 -- RX8E interface to RX01/02 8" diskette drives. -- M7104 \ -- M7105 > RK8E RK05 Disk Interface -- M7106 / -- M8321 \ -- M8322 \ TM8E Magtape control for 9 track tape. -- M8323 / -- M8327 / At one point, DEC packaged a PDP-8/E in a desk with no front panel controls other than power and bootstrap switch, along with an RX01 accessable from the front and a VT50 on top. This was sold as the Class-ic system, with an intended market in the classroom (hence the name); it was the forerunner, in terms of packaging, of many later DEC office products. Survival: It is still fairly common to find PDP-8/E systems on the surplus market, recently removed from service and in working condition or very close to it. A modest number are no-doubt still in service, and there is still a limited amount of commercial support from both DEC and third-party vendors. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/F? Date of introduction: 1972. Date of withdrawal: 1978. Technology: an OMNIBUS machine, as with the PDP-8/E. First use of a switching power supply in the PDP-8 family. Reason for introduction: The PDP-8/E had a large enough box and a large enough power supply to accomodate a large configuration. By shortening the box and putting in a small switching power supply, a lower cost OMNIBUS machine was possible. Reason for withdrawal: The PDP-8/A 800 displaced this machine, providing similar expansion capability at a lower cost. Compatability: The PDP-8/F used the PDP-8/E CPU and peripherals. Standard configuration: Identical to the PDP-8/E, except that the KC8E front panel was replaced with a KC8M front panel that had LEDs instead of incandescent lights; this front panel could also be installed on PDP-8/E systems, but the PDP-8/E front panel could not be used on a PDP-8/F because of the lack of a +8 supply for the lights. The original PDP-8/F box had a defective power supply, but a revised (slightly larger) box corrected this problem. Expandability: This machine could be expanded using all PDP-8/E OMNIBUS peripherals, including the external expansion chassis. The relatively small internal power supply and the lack of room for a 20 slot bus expander inside the first box were the only limitations. There were minor compatability problems with some options, for example, the power-fail auto-restart card, as originally sold, was incompatable with the PDP-8/F power supply. Survival: As with the PDP-8/E, these machines are moderately common on the surplus market, and frequently in working condition. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/M? Date of introduction: 1972. Date of withdrawal: 1978. Technology: This machine was a PDP-8/F (with a PDP-8/E CPU) Reason for introduction: DEC knew that OEM customers were an important market, so they packaged the PDP-8/F for this market, with no hardware changes behind the front panel. Reason for withdrawal: Same as the PDP-8/F Compatability: The PDP-8/M used the PDP-8/E CPU and peripherals. Standard configuration: Identical to the PDP-8/F, except that the KC8M front panel was replaced with a minimal function panel and the color scheme was different. Because of this, one of the following options were required: -- M848 -- KP8E Power fail and auto-restart. -- M847 -- MI8E Hardware Bootstrap Loader. Expandability: All options applying to the PDP-8/F applied. In addition, the KC8M front panel (standard with the PDP-8/F) was available as an option. Survival: As with the PDP-8/F. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8/A? Date of introduction: 1975 Date of withdrawal: 1984 Also known as: DECdatasystem 310 (an 8/A 500 sold as a word-processor) Technology: This machine used the OMNIBUS with a new single-board CPU. The backplane was reoriented so that boards plugged into it from the front, with the board held horizontally. Reason for introduction: Using TTL MSI and LSI components, DEC was able to reduce the PDP-8 CPU to a single oversize board (formally, hex height, double width). Similarly, they were able to make an 4K core memory board, and later, an 8K board in this format, and they were able to introduce a static RAM card using semiconductor memory. The minimum system was reduced to 3 boards. The market for the PDP-8 was dominated by small systems, with fewer and fewer customers needing large-scale expandability. Thus, the 20 slot backplane of the early Omnibus machines was too big; with the new single board CPU and memory, a 12 slot backplane was enough, allowing further cost reductions. Reason for withdrawal: The market for the PDP-8 family was shrinking in the face of pressure from larger minicomputers and the new monolithic microcomputers. After 1975, many PDP-8 sales were to captive customers who had sufficient software investments that they could not afford to move. Only the word-processing and small business markets remained strong for first-time PDP-8 sales, and in these, the specialized DEC VT-78 and DECmate machines were more cost effective than the open architecture OMNIBUS machines. Compatability: The new PDP-8/A CPU was largely compatable with the PDP-8/E CPU, except that the combination of RTR and RTL (Group 1 OPR instructions) loaded the next address. The power-fail auto-restart option included the standard skip on power low instruction, but also a new skip on battery empty instruction to test the battery used for back-up power on the new solid state memory. The standard parallel port on the M8316 port was not software compatable with the earlier line-printer interfaces used with device code 66. Standard configuration: The PDP-8/A was sold with a new short OMNIBUS backplane, mounted on its side above a power supply and a battery to back up the solid state memory. The minimum configuration included a limited function control panel and the following components on the bus: -- M8315 -- KK8A CPU board -- M???? -- MS8A 1K to 4K solid state memory. -- M???? -- MR8A ROM companion for the MS8A. -- M8316 -- DKC8AA serial/parallel interface and clock. The M8316 board contained a remarkable but useful hodgepodge of commonly used peripherals, including the console terminal interface, a parallel port, the power/fail auto-restart logic, and a 100 Hz real time clock. The original configuration sold had a 10 slot backplane and a poor power supply. The later base model had a 12 slot backplane, the 8/A 400. Expandability: All PDP-8/E peripherals and options could be used with the PDP-8/A. The KK8A cpu was not as fast as the KK8E used in the PDP-8/E, but the KK8E CPU could be substituted for the KK8A CPU, and many PDP-8/A systems were sold with this substitution. A box with a 20 slot backplane, the 8/A 600, was available for large configurations. A pair of PDP-8/A backplanes could be connected using BC08H cables, and there was a special cable, the BC80C, for connecting a hex wide 8A backplane to a PDP-8/E, -8/F or -8/M backplane. By late 1975, the PDP-8/A was being sold in a workstation configuration, with the CPU and dual 8" diskette drives in a desk with a video terminal (VT52) and letter quality printer on top. This followed the pattern set by the Class-ic packaging of the PDP-8/E, but it was aimed at the word-processing market. The following additional PDP-8/A (hex) boards were offered: -- G649 \_ MM8AA 8K Core stack (too slow for 8/E CPU!). -- H219A / MM8AA 8K Core memory control. -- G650 \_ MM8AB 16K Core stack (ok for 8/E CPU!). -- H219B / MM8AB 16K Core memory control. -- M???? -- MR8F 1K ROM (overlayable with core). -- M8317 -- KM8A memory extender (with variations). -- M8319 -- KL8A 4 channel RS232 or current loop serial I/O. -- M8433 -- RL8A controller for 1 to 4 RL01/RL02 disk drives. -- M???? -- FPP8A floating point processor. The PDP-8/A model 800 was the same as the model 600, but with the FPP8A floating point processor included as part of the package. -- M8416 -- KT8AA Memory management unit for up to 128K. -- -- KC8AA Programmer's Console (requires M8316) -- M8417 -- MSC8DJ 128K DRAM MOS Memory. Note that memory extension to 128K was a new PDP-8/A feature that was necessarily incompatable with the older PDP-8 memory expansion options, although the conventional PDP-8 memory expansion instructions still operate correctly on the first 32K. Access to additional fields involved borrowing IOT instructions that were previously dedicated to other devices. The MM8A options require the use of a box with a -20V power supply. Also, the use of the MSC8 DRAM memory cards requires a CPU that supports the memory stall signal, early PDP-8/E CPUs did not. Survival: As with the PDP-8/E, these machines are moderately common on the surplus market and a modest number are still in use. Because the original machines were less expensive than and slower than 8/E, they are more likely to be simply discarded instead of sold as surplus. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a VT78? Date of introduction: 1978 Date of withdrawal: 1980 (Displaced by the DECmate) Also known as: DECstation 78 Technology: Based on the Intersil/Harris 6120 microprocessor, packaged in a VT52 case. The 6120 processor was able to run at 4 MHz, but in the VT78, it was only clocked at 2.2 MHz because of the speed of the DRAM used and the deliberate use of graded out chips. Reason for introduction: Using TTL MSI and LSI components, DEC could pack a system into vacant space in a standard terminal case, allowing PDP-8 systems to compete with personal computers in the small business and office automation market. This was a natural follow-on to the desk-mounted workstation configurations in which the PDP-8/A was already being sold. Compatability: The Group I OPR combinations RAL RAR and RTL RTR are no-ops. Unlike all earlier PDP-8 models, autoindex locations 10 to 17 (octal) only work in page zero mode; these operate like all other memory locations when addressed in current page mode from code running on page zero. Other than this, it is fully PDP-8/E compatable, even at the level of I/O instructions for the standard periperals; this was the last PDP-8 to offer this level of compatability. It was not possible to continue from a halt without restarting the machine. In addition, none of the peripherals available on this machine needed DMA (data break) transfers. Standard configuration: The VT78 was sold with 16k words of DRAM with the keyboard and display of the VT52 terminal. An RX01 dual 8" diskette drive was standard, packaged in the pedestal under the terminal. The console (device 03/04) and the serial ports (devices 30/31 and 32/33) are compatible with the M8650 KL8E, with the latter extended to allow software controlled baud rate selection. There are two parallel ports; device 66 (compatible with the M8365 printer controller) and device 47, compatible with the nonstandard port on the M8316 DKC8AA. There is also a 100Hz clock compatible with the clock on the M8316 DKC8AA. The standard ROM boots the system from the RX01 after setting the baud rates to match that selected by the switches on the bottom of the VT52 case. Expandability: This was a closed system, with few options. The base configuration was able to support two RX01 drives (later RX02), for a total of 4 transports. Various boot ROM's were available, including a paper-tape RIM loader ROM for loading diagnostics from tape. Another ROM boots the system from a PDP-11 server in the client/server configuration used by WPS-11. Survival: There are probably many VT78 systems still in use. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a DECmate I? Date of introduction: 1980 Date of withdrawal: 1984 (Phased out in favor of the DECmate II) Also known as: DECmate (prior to the DECmate II, no suffix was used) VT278 Technology: Based on the Intersil/Harris 6120 microprocessor, packaged in a VT-100 box with keyboard and display. Reason for introduction: This machine was aimed primarily at the market originally opened by the VT78, using the IM6120 as a substitute for the older 6100 chip and optimizing for minimum cost and mass production efficiency. Compatability: A new feature was introduced in the 6120 microprocessor: The Group I OPR combination RAL RAR was defined as R3L, or rotate accumulator 3 places left, so that byte swap (BSW) is equivalent to R3L;R3L. RTR RTL remained a no-op, as in the 6100. Also, the EAE operations not implemented in the basic CPU cause the CPU to hang awaiting completion of the operation by a coprocessor. Unfortunately, no EAE coprocessor was ever offered. The printer port offered software baud-rate selection compatable with the VT78 baud-rate selection scheme. The dual-port data communications option was flexible but completely incompatable with all previous PDP-8 serial ports. The console and printer ports are not fully compatable with the earlier PDP-8 serial ports. Specifically, on earlier serial interfaces, it was possible to test flags without resetting them, but on the DECmate machines, testing the keyboard input flag always resets the flag as a side effect. In addition, on the console port, every successful test of the flag must be followed by reading a character or the flag will never be set again. It was not possible to continue from a halt without restarting the machine. The large amount of device emulation performed by the CPU in supporting screen updates severely limits the ability of the system to run in real time. Standard configuration: The DECmate I was sold with 32k words of memory, with a small control memory added to handle control/status, console device emulation and boot options. The console terminal keyboard and display functions are largely supported by code running in control memory (a less expensive alternative to dedicating hardware for this, as was done in the VT78). The DECmate I came with an integral printer port, compatable with the VT78 (device 32/33), and it had an RX02 dual 8 inch diskette drive, mounted in the short pedistal under the terminal/CPU box. A 100Hz clock was included, as in the VT78 and PDP-8/A. Expandability: This was a closed system, with limited options. Specifically, a second RX02 could be connected (or an RX01, because that had a compatable connector), the DP278A and DP278B communications boards (really the same board, but the DP278B had 2 extra chips), and the RL-278 disk controller, able to accomodate from 1 to 4 RL02 rack mount disk drives. When the DP278A option is added, additional routines in control memory come alive to handle terminal emulaton and allow diskless operation. The terminal emulator is an extended VT100 subset that is essentially compatable in 80 column mode. The DP278A option could support both asynchronous and synchronous protocols, and the DP278B could handle SDLC and other nasty bit-stuffing protocols. Various pedestal and desk configurations were sold for housing the RX01 and RX02 drives, most being teacart style designs, but there was also a pedestal version that was essentially a repackaging of the RX02 with either 2 or 4 new 8 inch disk transports (physically incompatable with earlier DEC transports). Survival: Many DECmates are still in use, and they are fairly common on the surplus market. They are found in small numbers just about anywhere large numbers of early PC vintage machines are found. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a DECmate II? Date of introduction: 1982 Date of withdrawal: 1986 Price: $1,435 Technology: Based on the 6120 microprocessor, this shared the same packaging as DEC's other competitors in the PC market, the Rainbow (8088 based) and the PRO-325 (PDP-11 based). Reason for introduction: This machine was introduced in order to allow more flexibility than the DECmate I and to allow more sharing of parts with the VT220 and DEC's other personal computers. Compatability: Same as the DECmate I, except it could continue from a halt. There was better hardware for device emulation support, allowing for somewhat better real-time performance. The data communications port was an incompatable improvement on the incompatable DECmate I communications port. No built-in terminal emulation was provided, and the data communications port supported only one line, but aside from this, the data communications port is essentially as powerful as the DP-278B on the DECmate I. Standard Configuration: The DECmate II was sold with 32K of program memory, plus a second full bank for dedicated control panel function emulation. Code running in the second bank is sometimes referred to as slushware; it looks like hardware to the PDP-8 user, but it is actually device emulation software that is loaded from the boot diskette. An integral RX50 dual 5 1/4 inch diskette drive with an 8051 controller chip was included, along with a printer port, a 100Hz real-time clock, single data communications port, and interfaces to the monitor and keyboard. The diskette drive can read single-sided 48 track-per-inch diskettes, so it might be possible to read (but not write) IBM PC diskettes on it. Expandability: This was the most open of the DECmate systems, with a number of disk options: An additional pair of RX50 drives could be added, and with the RX78 board, it could support a pair of dual 8 inch drives, either RX01 or RX02. As an alternative to the RX78, there was a controller for an MFM hard drive. The interface to the RX78 board wasn't fully compatable with earlier interfaces to RX01 and RX02, and there was no way to have both an RX78 and an MFM drive. The MFM drive could be up to 64 MB, with 16 sectors per track, 512 bytes each and at most 8 heads and 1024 (or possibly 4096) cylinders. A power supply upgrade was needed to support the MFM drive. DEC sold this machine with 5, 10 and 20 meg hard drives, Seagate ST-506, 412, and 225 respectively. A graphics board supporting a color monitor could be added in addition to the monochrome console display; two variants of this board were produced during the production run, all slightly incompatable. A coprocessor board could be added, with communication to and from the coprocessor through device 14. DEC sold three boards, an APU board (Z80 and 64K), and two XPU boards (Z80, 8086 and either 256K or 512K). If these added processors are used, the 6120 processor is usually used as an I/O server for whatever ran on the coprocessor. The XPU boards used a Z80 for I/O support, so 8086 I/O was very indirect, particularly if it involved I/O to a PDP-8 device that was emulated from control memory. Despite this, the DECmate version of MS/DOS is generally faster than MS/DOS on more recent 80286 and 80386 based IBM PCs because of effective use of the coprocessors (but they couldn't run MS/DOS code that bypasses MS/DOS for I/O). Survival: As with the DECmate I. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a DECmate III? Date of introduction: 1984 Date of withdrawal: 1990 Price: $2,695 Technology: Same as the DECmate II. Reason for introduction: Again, DEC discovered that the market for large systems was dominated by other products, and that the PDP-8 based products were rarely expanded to their full potential. Thus, there was no point in paying the price for expandability. Compatability: Same as the DECmate II, except that the printer port is fixed at 4800 baud. Standard Configuration: The DECmate III was sold with 32K of program memory, plus a second full bank for dedicated control panel functions, an integral RX50 dual 5 1/4 inch diskette drive with an 8051 controller chip, a printer port, a 100Hz real-time-clock, a data communications port, and interfaces for the VR-201 monitor and keyboard. Expandability: A revised version of the Z80 based coprocessor for the DECmate II was available, and a graphics board largely compatable with the later DECmate II graphics board could be added allowing the standard monochrome monitor to be replaced with a VR-241 color monitor. Two monitor configurations were not supported. An obscure variant of the DEC scholar modem was also supported as an option. Survival: As with the DECmate I. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a DECmate III+? Date of introduction: 1985 Date of withdrawal: 1990 Technology: Same as the DECmate II. Reason for introduction: This machine apparently represents the last gasp of the PDP-8, hunting for the remains of the ever-shrinking market niche that the earlier DECmates had carved out. The market niche was not there, and the production runs for this machine were short enough that UV erasable EPROM technology was used where earlier DECmates had used mask programmed chips. Compatability: Same as the DECmate II, but the machine was unable to read 48 track per inch IBM formatted diskettes. Again the printer port was fixed at 4800 baud. Standard Configuration: The DECmate III+ was sold with 32K of program memory, plus a second bank for dedicated control panel functions, an integral RX33 single 5 1/4 inch diskette drive with an 8751 controller chip, a printer port, a data communications port and interfaces to the monitor and keyboard. A hard disk controller compatable with the optional one on the DECmate II was included, supporting an integral ST-225 20 MB disk; it is likely that it can only handle up to 1024 cylinders, but it is otherwise compatable with the DECmate II. Expandability: The same coprocessor option sold with the DECmate III was available, but because of the difficulty of adding a second floppy drive, this was rarely used (the Z80 was most likely to be used to run CP/M, but that system requires two drives to handle the installation procedure; an appropriately configured bootable image created on a DECmate II or III could run on a DECmate III+). The same graphics board as used on the DECmate III was also available. The circuit traces and connectors for the Scholar modem are present, but this option was never sold on the DECmate III+. Survival: As with the other DECmates. ------------------------------ End of PDP-8 Summary of Models and Options (posted every other month) ********************************************************************* From jones@cs.uiowa.edu Mon Aug 8 15:22:26 EDT 1994 Article: 986 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.answers,news.answers Subject: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp8 Date: 8 Aug 94 08:08:08 GMT Organization: Computer Science, University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa, USA Lines: 1120 Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Distribution: world Expires: 8 Oct 1994 08:08:08 GMT Message-ID: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Summary: Answers to common questions about antique DEC PDP-8 computers. Those posting to alt.sys.pdp8 should read this. Keywords: FAQ DEC PDP 8 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.sys.pdp8:986 alt.answers:3806 news.answers:25313 Archive-name: dec-faq/pdp8 Last-modified: Aug 5, 1994 Frequently Asked Questions about the DEC PDP-8 computer. By Douglas Jones, jones@cs.uiowa.edu (with help from many folks) The most recent version of this file is available by anonymous FTP from: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/alt.sys.pdp8 ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/dec-faq ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/pub/usenet/news.answers/alt.sys.pdp8 ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/docs Automatic translations of this document to HTML format (as used by World Wide Web) are available from: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/dec-faq/top.html An obsolete version of this file is available on the Walnut Creek USENET FAQ CDROM. This posting conforms to RFC1153 USENET digest format (with exceptions due to the fact that it is not really a digest). Contents: What is a PDP? What is a PDP-8? What is the PDP-8 instruction set? What does PDP-8 assembly language look like? What character sets does the PDP-8 support? What different PDP-8 models were made? What about the LINC-8 and PDP-12? Where can I get a PDP-8 today? Where can I get PDP-8 documentation? What operating systems were written for the PDP-8? What programming languages were supported on the PDP-8? Where can I get PDP-8 software? Where can I get additional information? What use is a PDP-8 today? Who's Who? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: What is a PDP? In 1957, Ken Olson and Harlan Anderson founded Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC), capitalized at $100,000, and 70% owned by American Research and Development Corporation. The founders wanted to call the company Digital Computer Corporation, but the venture capitalists insisted that they avoid the term Computer and hold off on building computers. With facilities in an old woolen mill in Maynard Massachusetts, DEC's first product was a line of transistorized digital "systems modules", plug-in circuit boards with a few logic gates per board. Starting in 1960, DEC finally began to sell computers (the formal acceptance of the first PDP-1 by BBN is reported in Computers and Automation, April 1961, page 8B). Soon after this, there were enough users that DECUS, the Digital Equipment Computer User's Society was founded. DEC's first computer, the PDP-1, sold for only $120,000 at a time when other computers sold for over $1,000,000. (A good photo of a PDP-1 is printed in Computers and Automation, Dec. 1961, page 27). DEC quoted prices as low as $85,000 for minimal models. The venture capitalist's insistance on avoiding the term computer was based on the stereotype that computers were big and expensive, needing a computer center and a large staff; by using the term Programmable Data Processor, or PDP, DEC avoided this stereotype. For over a decade, all digital computers sold by DEC were called PDPs. (In early DEC documentation, the plural form "PDPs" is used as a generic term for all DEC computers.) In the early 1960's, DEC was the only manufacturer of large computers without a leasing plan. IBM, Burroughs, CDC and other computer manufacturers leased most of their machines, and many machines were never offered for outright sale. DEC's cash sales approach led to the growth of third party computer leasing companies such as DELOS, a spinoff of BB&N. DEC built a number of different computers under the PDP label, with a huge range of price and performance. The largest of these are fully worthy of large computer centers with big support staffs. Some early DEC computers were not really built by DEC. With the PDP-3 and LINC, for example, customers built the machines using DEC parts and facilities. Here is the list of PDP computers: MODEL DATE PRICE BITS COMMENTS ===== ==== ======== ==== ===== PDP-1 1960 $120,000 18 DEC's first computer PDP-2 NA 24 Never built? PDP-3 NA 36 One built by a customer, not by DEC. PDP-4 1962 $60,000 18 Predecessor of the PDP-7. PDP-5 1963 $27,000 12 The ancestor of the PDP-8. PDP-6 1964 $300,000 36 A big computer; 23 built, most for MIT. PDP-7 1965 $72,000 18 Widely used for real-time control. PDP-8 1965 $18,500 12 The smallest and least expensive PDP. PDP-9 1966 $35,000 18 An upgrade of the PDP-7. PDP-10 1967 $110,000 36 A PDP-6 followup, great for timesharing. PDP-11 1970 $10,800 16 DEC's first and only 16 bit computer. PDP-12 1969 $27,900 12 A PDP-8 relative. PDP-13 NA Bad luck, there was no such machine. PDP-14 A ROM-based programmable controller. PDP-15 1970 $16,500 18 A TTL upgrade of the PDP-9. PDP-16 1972 NA 8/16 A register-transfer module system. Corrections and additions to this list are welcome! The prices given are for minimal systems in the year the machine was first introduced. The bits column indicates the word size. Note that the DEC PDP-10 became the DECSYSTEM-20 as a result of marketing considerations, and DEC's VAX series of machines began as the Virtual Address eXtension of the never-produced PDP-11/78. It is worth mentioning that it is generally accepted that the Data General Nova (see photo, Computers and Automation, Nov. 1968, page 48) was originally developed as the PDP-X, a 16-bit multi-register version of the PDP-8. A prototype PDP-X was built at DEC before the design was rejected. This and a competing 16-bit design were apparently submitted to Harold McFarland at Carnegie-Mellon University for evaluation; McFarland (and perhaps Gordon Bell, who was at C-MU at the time) evaluated the competing designs and rejected both in favor of what we know as the PDP-11. Some speculate that Bell rejected the Nova design because the competing proposal used the register-transfer notation he had introduced in "Bell and Newell, Computer Structures -- Readings and Examples". An alternate story is that the reason DEC never produced a PDP-13 was because the number 13 had been assigned to what became the Nova; this is unlikely because the PDP-X prototype came before the -11. Neither DEC nor Data General talk much about this, but Ed De Castro, the founding president of Data General, was part of the PDP-8 design team, as were many of the others who came to Data General to build the Nova. Today, all of the PDP machines are in DEC's corporate past, with the exception of the PDP-11 family, which survives as a line of microcomputers. Of course, occasionally, some lab builds a machine out of DEC hardware and calls it a PDP with a new number. For example, the Australian Atomic Energy Commission once upgraded a PDP-7 by adding a PDP-15 on the side; they called the result a PDP-22. ------------------------------ Subject: What is a PDP-8? The PDP-8 family of minicomputers were built by Digital Equipment Corporation between 1965 and 1990, although it is worth noting that the term minicomputer first came into prominence after the machine was introduced. The first use of the term appears to have been made by the head of DEC's operations in England, John Leng. He sent back a sales report that started: "Here is the latest minicomputer activity in the land of miniskirts as I drive around in my [Austin] Mini Minor." The term quickly became part of DEC's internal jargon and spread from there; the first computer explicitly sold as a minicomputer, though, was made by by Interdata (See the Interdata ad in Computers and Automation, May 1968, page 10). The PDP-8 was largely upward compatible with the PDP-5, a machine that was unveiled on August 11, 1963 at WESCON, and the inspiration for that machine came from two earlier machines, the LINC and the CDC 160. All of these machines were characterized by a 12 bit word with little or no hardware byte structure, typically 4K words of memory, and simple but powerful instruction sets. Although some people consider the CDC 160 the first minicomputer, the PDP-8 was the definitive minicomputer. By late 1973, the PDP-8 family was the best selling computer in the world, and it is likely that it was only displaced from this honor by the Apple II (which was displaced by the IBM PC). Most models of the PDP-8 set new records as the least expensive computer on the market at the time of their introduction. The PDP-8 has been described as the model-T of the computer industry because it was the first computer to be mass produced at a cost that just about anyone could afford. C. Gordon Bell has said that the basic idea of the PDP-8 was not really original with him. He gives credit to Seymour Cray (of CDC and later Cray) for the idea of a single-accumulator 12 bit minicomputer. Cray's CDC 160 family (see CACM, march 1961, photo on page 244, text on page 246) was such a machine, and in addition to the hundreds of CDC 160 systems sold as stand-alone machines, a derivative 12 bit architecture was used for the I/O processors on Cray's first great supercomputer, the CDC 6600. Note that Cray's 12 bit machines had 6 basic addressing modes with variable length instruction words and other features that were far from the simple elegance of the PDP-8. Despite its many modes, the CDC architecture lacked the notion of current page addressing, and the result is that, for examples that don't involve indexing, PDP-8 code is generally as tight as and perhaps tighter than CDC 160 code. ------------------------------ Subject: What is the PDP-8 instruction set? The PDP-8 word size is 12 bits, and the basic memory is 4K words. The minimal CPU contained the following registers: PC - the program counter, 12 bits. AC - the accumulator, 12 bits. L - the link, 1 bit, commonly prefixed to AC as . It is worth noting that many operations such as procedure linkage and indexing, which are usually thought of as involving registers, are done with memory on the PDP-8 family. Instruction words are organized as follows: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| | | | | | | op |i|z| addr | op - the opcode. i - the indirect bit (0 = direct, 1 = indirect). z - the page bit (0 = page zero, 1 = current page). addr - the word in page. The top 5 bits of the 12 bit program counter give the current page, and memory addressing is also complicated by the fact that absolute memory locations 8 through 15 are incremented prior to use when used as indirect addresses. These locations are called auto-index registers (despite the fact that they are in memory); they allow the formulation of very tightly coded array operations. The basic instructions are: 000 - AND - and operand with AC. 001 - TAD - add operand to (a 13 bit value). 010 - ISZ - increment operand and skip if result is zero. 011 - DCA - deposit AC in memory and clear AC. 100 - JMS - jump to subroutine. 101 - JMP - jump. 110 - IOT - input/output transfer. 111 - OPR - microcoded operations. The ISZ and other skip instructions conditionally skip the next instruction in sequence. The ISZ is commonly used to increment a loop counter and skip if done, and it is also used as an general increment instruction, either followed by a no-op or in contexts where it is known that the result will never be zero. The JMS instruction stores the return address in relative word zero of the subroutine, with execution starting with relative word one. Subroutine return is done with an indirect JMP through the return address. Subroutines commonly increment their return addresses to index through inline parameter lists or to perform conditional skips over instructions following the call. The IOT instruction has the following form: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |1|1|0|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| | | | | | | device | op | The IOT instruction specifies one of up to 8 operations on one of 64 devices. Typically (but not universally), each bit of the op field evokes an operation, and these can be microcoded in right to left order. Prior to the PDP-8/E, there were severe restrictions on the interpretation of the op field that resulted from the fact that the operation was delivered as a sequence of IOP pulses, each on a separate line of the I/O bus. Each line was typically used to evoke a different device function, so essentially, the operation 000 was always a no-op because it evoked no functions, and the code 111 evoked all three functions in series. As an example of the use of IOT instructions, consider the console terminal interface. On early PDP-8 systems, this was always assumed to be an ASR 33 teletype, complete with low-speed paper tape reader and punch. It was addressed as devices 03 (the keyboard/reader) and 04 (the teleprinter/punch): _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |1|1|0|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |0 0 0 0 1 1|0 0 1 - KSF - keyboard skip if flag |0 0 0 0 1 1|0 1 0 - KCC - keyboard clear flag |0 0 0 0 1 1|1 0 0 - KRS - keyboard read static The keyboard flag is set by the arrival of a character. The KCC instruction clears both the flag and the accumulator. KRS ors the 8 bit input data with the low order 8 bits of AC. The commonly used KRB instruction is the or of KCC and KRS. To await one byte of input, use KSF to poll the flag, then read the byte with KRB. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |1|1|0|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |0 0 0 1 0 0|0 0 1 - TSF - teleprinter skip if flag |0 0 0 1 0 0|0 1 0 - TCF - teleprinter clear flag |0 0 0 1 0 0|1 0 0 - TPC - teleprinter print static The teleprinter flag is set by the completion of the TPC operation (as a result, on startup, many applications output a null in order to get things going). TCF clears the flag, and TPC outputs the low order 8 bits of the accumulator. The commonly used TLS instruction is the or of TCF and TPC. To output a character, first use TSF to poll the flag, then write the character with TLS. IOT instructions may be used to initiate data break transfers from block devices such as disk or tape. The term "data break" was, for years, DEC's preferred term for cycle-stealing direct-memory-access data transfers. Some CPU functions are accessed only by IOT instructions. For example, interrupt enable and disable are IOT instructions: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |1|1|0|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |0 0 0 0 0 0|0 0 1 - ION - interrupts turn on |0 0 0 0 0 0|0 1 0 - IOF - interrupts turn off An interrupt is requested when any device raised its flag. The console master clear switch resets all flags and disables interrupts. In effect, an interrupt is a JMS instruction to location zero, with the side effect of disabling interrupts. The interrupt service routine is expected to test the device flags and perform the operations needed to reset them, and then return using ION immediately before the indirect return JMP. The effect of ION is delayed so that interrupts are not enabled until after the JMP. The instructions controlling the optional memory management unit are also IOT instructions. This unit allows the program to address up to 32K of main memory by adding a 3 bit extension to the memory address. Two extensions are available, one for instruction fetch and direct addressing, the other for indirect addressing. A wide variety of operations are available through the OPR microcoded instructions: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Group 1 |1|1|1|0|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| 1 - CLA - clear AC 1 - CLL - clear the L bit 1 - CMA - ones complement AC 1 - CML - complement L bit 1 - IAC - increment 1 0 0 - RAR - rotate right 0 1 0 - RAL - rotate left 1 0 1 - RTR - rotate right twice 0 1 1 - RTL - rotate left twice In general, the above operations can be combined by oring the bit patterns for the desired operations into a single instruction. If none of the bits are set, the result is the NOP instruction. When these operations are combined, they operate top to bottom in the order shown above. The exception to this is that IAC cannot be combined with the rotate operations on some models, and attempts to combine rotate operations have different effects from one model to another (for example, on the PDP-8/E, the rotate code 001 means swap 6 bit bytes in the accumulator, while previous models took this to mean something like "shift neither left nor right 2 bits"). _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Group 2 |1|1|1|1|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|0| 1 0 - SMA - skip on AC < 0 \ 1 0 - SZA - skip on AC = 0 > or group 1 0 - SNL - skip on L /= 0 / 0 0 0 1 - SKP - skip unconditionally 1 1 - SPA - skip on AC >= 0 \ 1 1 - SNA - skip on AC /= 0 > and group 1 1 - SZL - skip on L = 0 / 1 - CLA - clear AC 1 - OSR - or switches with AC 1 - HLT - halt The above operations may be combined by oring them together, except that there are two distinct incompatible groups of skip instructions. When combined, SMA, SZA and SNL, skip if one or the other of the indicated conditions are true (logical or), while SPA, SNA and SZL skip if all of the indicated conditions are true (logical and). When combined, these operate top to bottom in the order shown; thus, the accumulator may be tested and then cleared. Setting the halt bit in a skip instruction is a crude but useful way to set a breakpoint for front-panel debugging. If none of the bits are set, the result is an alternative form of no-op. A third group of operate microinstructions (with a 1 in the least significant bit) deals with the optional extended arithmetic element to allow such things as hardware multiply and divide, 24 bit shift operations, and normalize. These operations involve an additional data register, MQ or multiplier quotient, and a small step count register. On the PDP-8/E and successors, MQ and the instructions for loading and storing it were always present, even when the EAE was absent, and the EAE was extended to provide a useful variety of 24 bit arithmetic operations. ------------------------------ Subject: What does PDP-8 assembly language look like? There are many different assemblers for the PDP-8, but most use a compatible basic syntax; here is an example: START, CLA CLL / Clear everything TAD X / Load X AND I Y / And with the value pointed to by Y DCA X / Store in X HLT / Halt X, 1 / A variable Y, 7 / A pointer Note that labels are terminated by a comma, and comments are separated from the code by a slash. There are no fixed fields or column restrictions. The "CLA CLL" instruction on the first line is an example of the microcoding of two of the Group 1 operate instructions. CLA alone has the code 7200 (octal), while CLL has the code 7100; combining these as "CLA CLL" produces 7300. As a general rule, except when memory reference instructions are involved, the assembler simply ors together the values of all blank separated fields between the label and comment. Indirection is indicated by the special symbol I in the operand field, as in the third line of the example. The typical PDP-8 assembler has no explicit notation to distinguish between page zero and current page addresses. Instead, the assembler is expected to note the page holding the operand and automatically generate the appropriate mode. If the operand is neither in the current page nor page zero, some assemblers will raise an error, others will automatically generate an indirect pointer to the off-page operand; this should be avoided because it only works for directly addressed off-page operands, and only when the memory management unit is not being used to address a data field other than the current instruction field. Note, in the final two lines of the example, that there is no "define constant" pseudo-operation. Instead, where a constant is to be assembled into memory, the constant takes the place of the op-code field. The PDP-8 has no immediate addressing mode, but most assemblers provide a notation to allow the programmer to ignore this lack: TAD (3) / add 3, from memory on the current page. TAD [5] / add 5, from memory on page zero. JMP I (LAB) / jump indirect through the address of LAB. Assemblers that support this automatically fill the end of each page with constants defined in this way that have been accumulated during the assembly of that page. Note that the variants "(3" and "[5" (with no closing parentheses) are usually allowed but the use of this sloppy form is discouraged. Furthermore, the widely used PAL8 assembler interprets the unlikely operand "(3)+1" as being the same as "(3+1)". Arithmetic is allowed in operand fields and constant definitions, with expressions evaluated in strict left-to-right order, as: TAD X+1 / add the contents of the location after X. TAD (X-1) / add the address of the location before X. Other operators allowed include and (&), or (!), multiply (^) and divide (%), as well as a unary sign (+ or -). Unfortunately, one of the most widely used assemblers, PAL8, has trouble when unary operators are mixed with multiplication or division. Generally, only the first 6 characters of identifiers are significant and numeric constants are evaluated in octal. Other assembly language features are illustrated below: / Comments may stand on lines by themselves / Blank lines are allowed *200 / Set the assembly origin to 200 (octal) NL0002= CLA CLL CML RTL / Define new opcode NL0002. NL0002 / Use new opcode (load 0002 in AC) JMP .-1 / Jump to the previous instruction X1= 10 / Define X1 (an auto-index register address) LETA= "A / Define LETA as 000011000001 (ASCII A) TAD I X1 / Use autoindex register 1 IAC; RAL / Multiple instructions on one line $ / End of assembly The assembly file ends with a line containing a $ (dollar sign) not in a comment field. The $, * and = syntax used by most PDP-8 assemblers replaces functions performed by pseudo-operations on many other assemblers. In addition, PAL8, the most widely used PDP-8 assembler supports the following pseudo-operations: DECIMAL / Interpret numeric constants in base 10 OCTAL / Interpret numeric constants in base 8 EJECT / Force a page eject in the listing XLIST / Toggle listing XLIST N / Turn on listing if N=0, off if N=1 PAGE / Advance location counter to next page PAGE N / Set location counter start of page N FIELD N / Assemble into extended memory field N TEXT "STR" / Pack STR into consecutive 6 bit bytes ZBLOCK N / Allocate N words, initialized to zero IFDEF S / Assemble C if symbol S is defined IFNDEF S / Assemble C if symbol S is not defined IFZERO E / Assemble C if expression E is zero IFNZRO E / Assemble C if expression E is not zero FIXMRI OP= VAL / Define OP as memory reference instruction Conditonally assembled code must be enclosed in angle brackets. The enclosed code may extend over multiple lines and, because different assemblers treat comments within conditionals differently, the closing bracket should not be in a comment and any brackets in comments should be balanced. ------------------------------ Subject: What character sets does the PDP-8 support? From the beginning, PDP-8 software has generally assumed that textual I/O would be in 7 bit ASCII. Most early PDP-8 systems used teletypes as console terminals; as sold by DEC, these were configured for mark parity, so most older software assumes 7 bit ASCII, upper case only, with the 8th bit set to 1. On output, lines are generally terminated with both CR and LF; on input, CR is typically (but not always) the line terminator and LF is typically ignored. In addition, the tab character (HT) is generally allowed, but software support output of text containing tabs varies. One difficulty with much PDP-8 software is that it bypasses the device handlers provided by the operating system and goes directly to the device. This results in very irregular device support, so that, for example, control-S and control-Q work to start and stop output under OS/8, but the OS/8 PAL assembler ignores them when reporting errors. Most of the better engineered PDP-8 software tends to fold upper and lower case on input, and it ignores the setting of the 8th bit. Older PDP-8 software will generally fail when presented with lower case textual input (this includes essentially all OS/8 products prior to OS/278 V1). Internally, PDP-8 programmers are free to use other character sets, but the "X notation provided by the assembler encourages use of 7 bit ASCII with the 8th bit set to 1, and the TEXT pseudo-operation encourages the 6 bit character set called "stripped ASCII". To map from upper-case-only ASCII to stripped ASCII, each 8 bit character is anded with octal 77 and then packed 2 characters per word, left to right. Many programs use a semi-standard scheme for packing mixed upper and lower case into 6 bit TEXT form; this uses ^ to flip from upper to lower case or lower to upper case, % to encode CR-LF pairs, and @ (octal 00) to mark end of string. Note that this scheme makes no provision for encoding the %, ^ and @ characters, nor does it allow control characters other than the CR-LF pair. The P?S/8 operating system supports a similar 6 bit text file format, where upper and lower case are folded together, tabs are stored as _ (underline), end-of-line is represented by 00, padded with any nonzero filler to a word boundary, and end of file is 0000. Files under the widely used OS/8 system consist of sequences of 256 word blocks. When used for text, each block holds 384 bytes, packed 3 bytes per pair of words as follows: aaaaaaaa ccccaaaaaaaa bbbbbbbb CCCCbbbbbbbb ccccCCCC Control Z is used as an end of file marker. Because most of the PDP-8 system software was originally developed for paper tape, binary object code is typically stored in paper-tape image form using the above packing scheme. ------------------------------ Subject: What different PDP-8 models were made? The total sales figure for the PDP-8 family is estimated at over 300,000 machines. Over 7000 of these were sold prior to 1970. During the PDP-8 production run, a number of models were made, as listed in the following table. Of these, the PDP-8/E is generally considered to be the definitive machine. If the PDP-8 is considered to be the Model T of the computer industry, perhaps the PDP-8/E should be considered to be the industry's Model A. MODEL DATES SALES COST TECHNOLOGY REMARKS PDP-5 63-67 116 Transistor PDP-8 65-69 1450 $18,500 Transistor LINC-8 66-69 142 $38,500 Transistor PDP-8/S 66-70 1024 $10,000 Transistor Very slow PDP-8/I 68-71 3698 $12,800 TTL PDP-8/L 68-71 3902 $8,500 TTL Scaled down 8/I PDP-12 69-73? 3500? $27,900 TTL Followup to LINC-8 PDP-8/E 70-78 >10K? $7,390 TTL MSI Omnibus PDP-8/F 72-78? >10K? <$7K TTL MSI Omnibus Based on 8/E CPU PDP-8/M 72-78? >10K? <$7K TTL MSI Omnibus OEM version of 8/F PDP-8/A 75-84? >10K? $1,317 TTL LSI Omnibus New CPU or 8/E CPU VT78 78-80 <$10K Harris 6120 Workstation DECmate I 80-84 Harris 6120 Workstation DECmate II 82-86 $1,435 Harris 6120 Workstation DECmate III 84-90 $2,695 Harris 6120 Workstation DECmate III+85-90 Harris 6120 Workstation Additional information is available in part two of this FAQ, where all known models of the PDP-8, along with variants, alternate marketing names, and other peculiarities are given. The last years of the PDP-8 family were dominated by the PDP-8 compatible microprocessor based VT78 and DECmate workstations. DEC also used the Harris 6120 microprocessors in many peripheral controllers for the PDP-11 and PDP-15. While all of the earlier PDP-8 systems were open architecture systems, the DECmates had closed architectures with an integrated console terminals and limited peripheral options. The following PDP-8 compatible or semi-compatible machines were made and sold by others; very little is known about many of these: MODEL DATE MAKER, NOTES MP-12 6? Fabritek (a surviving example runs FOCAL). TPA 68? Hungarian, a PDP-8/L clone, ran FOKAL Electrotechnica-100I ? Yugoslavian, a PDP-8/I clone or OEM label. Saratov-2 ? Russian, a slow clone, perhaps PDP-8/S Voronezh ? Russian, another PDP-8/? clone SPEAR u-LINC 100? SPEAR, Inc, Waltham Mass (a LINC clone!) SPEAR u-LINC 300? SPEAR, Inc, Waltham Mass (a LINC clone!) DCC-112 70-71 Digital Computer Controls DCC-112H 71 Digital Computer Controls 6100 Sampler 7? Intersil, their IM6100 promotional kit Intercept I 7? Intersil, based on IM6100 Intercept Jr 7? Intersil, based on IM6100 PCM-12 7? Pacific CyberMetrix, based on Intercept bus PCM-12A 7? Pacific CyberMetrix, fixed to clock at 4MHz SBC-8 84-88 CESI, Based on IM6120, SCSI bus ------------------------------ Subject: What about the LINC/8 and PDP-12? Wesley Clark, then at Lincoln Labs, developed the LINC, or Laboratory INstrumentation Computer, as a personal laboratory computer in the early 1960's. He developed it in response to the needs of Mary Brazier, a neurophysiologist at MIT who needed better laboratory tools. Over 24 LINC systems were built by customers before late 1964 when DEC began selling a commercial version (see Computers and Automation, Nov. 1964, page 43). By the time DEC introduced the LINC-8, 43 LINC systems had been installed (see Computers and Automation, Mar. 1966, page 34). When Lincoln Labs decided that the LINC did not fit their mission, a group at the the National Institute of Health funded an experiment to see if the LINC would be a productive tool in the life sciences. As a result of this project, 12 LINCs were built and debugged, each by its eventual user. The LINC was the first 12 bit minicomputer built using DEC hardware. Like the PDP-5 and other early DEC computers, it was built with system modules, DEC's first family of logic modules. Along with the CDC 160, it paved the way for the PDP-5 and PDP-8. When compared with the PDP-8, the LINC instruction set was not as well suited for general purpose computation, but the common peripherals needed for lab work such as analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog converters were all bundled into the LINC system. Users judged it to be a superb laboratory instrument. One of the major innovations introduced with the LINC was the LINCtape. These tapes could be carelessly pocketed or dropped on the floor without fear of data loss, and they allowed random access to data blocks. DEC improved on this idea slightly to make their DECtape format, and DECtape was widely used with all DEC computers made in the late 1960's and early 1970's. The motives behind the development of LINCtape were the same motives that led IBM to develop the floppy disk almost a decade later, and in fact, DECtape survived as a widely used medium until DEC introduced the RX01 8 inch floppy disk drive around 1975, and even after this, DECtape was only slowly phased out. Within a year of the introduction of the PDP-8, DEC released the LINC-8, a machine that combined a PDP-8 with a LINC in one package. The success of the LINC-8 led DEC to re-engineer the machine using TTL logic in the late 1960's; the new version was originally to be called the LINC-8/I, but it was sold as the PDP-12. Both the LINC-8 and the PDP-12 had impressive consoles, with separate sets of lights and switches for the LINC and PDP-8 halves. The success of the LINC-8 also led to the development of a clone, the SPEAR micro-LINC. This machine used Motorola MECL integrated circuits and was available for delivery in (June 1965? this date must be wrong!). The LINC-8 and PDP-12 could run essentially any PDP-8 or LINC program, with the exception of the few programs that relied on the primitive interrupt structure of the original LINC architecture; on the LINC-8, all interrupts were handled by the PDP-8 side of the hardware. Because the LINC-8 and PDP-12 had instructions for switching between modes, a new body of software was developed that required both modes. One feature of LINC and LINC-8 software is the common use of the graphic display for input-output. These machines were some of the first to include such a display as a standard component, and many programs used the knobs on the analog to digital converter to move a cursor on the display in the way we now use a mouse. Various versions of LAP, the Linc Assembly Program, were the dominant assemblers used on the LINC. WISAL (WISconson Assembly Language) or LAP6-W was the version of this assembler that survived to run on the PDP-12. Curiously, this includes a PDP-8 assembler written in LINC code. LAP6-DIAL (Display Interactive Assembly Language) evolved from this on the PDP-12 to became the dominant operating system for the PDP-12. The 8K version of this is DIAL MS (Mass Storage), even if it has only two LINCtape drives. These were eventually displaced by the OS/8 variant known as OS/12. ------------------------------ Subject: Where can I get a PDP-8 today? The CESI machine may still be on the market, for a high price, but generally, you can't buy a new PDP-8 anymore. There are quite a few PDP-8 machines to be found in odd places on the used equipment market. They were widely incorporated into products such as computer controlled machine tools, X-ray diffraction machines, and other industrial and lab equipment. Many of them were sold under the EduSystem marketing program to public schools and universities, and others were used to control laboratory instrumentation. After about 1976, Reuters bought as many as 10,000 OMNIBUS based machines per year, with perhaps 2000 per year going to other customers. If you can't get real hardware, you can get emulators. Over the years, many PDP-8 emulators have been written; the best of these are indistinguishable from the real machine from a software prespective, and on a modern high-speed RISC platform, these frequently outperform the hardware they are emulating. Emulators are available from: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/emulators Finally, you can always build your own. The textbook "The Art of Digital Design," second edition, by Franklin Prosser and David Winkel (Prentice-Hall, 1987, ISBN 0-13-046780-4) uses the design of a PDP-8 as a running example. Many students who have used this book were required to build working PDP-8 systems as lab projects. ------------------------------ Subject: Where can I get PDP-8 documentation? Part II of this FAQ cites the key documents published by DEC describing each model of the PDP-8. These are all out of print, and DEC was in the habit of printing much of their documentation on newsprint with paperback bindings, which is to say, surviving copies tend to be yellow and brittle. DEC distributed huge numbers of catalogs and programming handbooks in this inexpensive paperback format, and these circulate widely on the second-hand market. When research laboratories and electronics shops are being cleaned out, it is still common to find a few dusty, yellowed copies of these books being thrown out. Douglas Jones has made a small number of bound photocopies of DEC's 1973 introduction to programming, perhaps the definitive introduction to the PDP-8, and the other early DEC handbooks need similar treatment before they all crumble. Maintenance manuals are harder to find, but more valuable. If you need one, you usually need to find someone willing to photocopy one of the few surviving copies. DEC has been friendly to collectors, granting fairly broad letters of permission to reprint obsolete documentation, and the network makes if fairly easy to find someone who has the documentation you need and can get copies. The most difficult to copy material is the large prints, many of which would be quite useful if photoreduced, but this is expensive. ------------------------------ Subject: What operating systems were written for the PDP-8? A punched paper-tape library of stand-alone programs was commonly used with the smallest (diskless and tapeless) configurations from the beginning up through the mid 1970's. This included a paper-tape based text editor, the PAL III and MACRO-8 assembler, and a FORTRAN compiler, as well as a library of support routines. Many paper tapes from this library survive to the present at various sites! The minimum configuration expected by these tapes is a CPU with 4K memory and a teletype ASR 33 with paper tape reader and punch. Note that much of this paper-tape-based software is based on memory-use and I/O conventions that are incompatible with later disk-based systems. The DECtape Library System was a DECtape oriented save and restore system that was available from the start. The resident portion of this system occupies only 17 words of memory (7600-7625 octal), and it allowed saving and restoring absolute core images as named files on a reel of DECtape. Initially, program development was still done with paper tape, and only executable memory images were stored on DECtape, but eventually, a limited DECtape-based text editor was introduced, along with a DECtape based assembler. The 4K Disk Monitor System provided slightly better facilities. This supported on-line program development and it worked with any device that supported 129 word blocks (DECtape, the DF32 disk, or the RF08 disk). It was quite slow, but it also used very little of the available memory. MS/8 or the R-L Monitor System, was developed starting in 1966 and submitted to DECUS in 1970. This was a disk oriented system, faster than the above, with tricks to make it run quickly on DECtape based systems. POLY BASIC was a BASIC only system submitted to DECUS and later sold by DEC as part of its EduSystem marketing program. EduSystem 25 Basic is available from: ftp://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/pub/DEC/PDP8/Langs/Edu25Basic P?S/8 was developed starting in 1971 from an MS/8 foundation. It runs on minimal PDP-8 configurations, supports somewhat device independant I/O and requires a random-access device for the file system (DECtape is random-access!). P?S/8 runs compatibly on most PDP-8 machines including DECmates, excepting only the PDP-8/S and PDP-5. P?S/8 is still being developed! OS/8, developed in parallel with P?S/8, became the main PDP-8 programming environment sold by DEC. The minimum configuration required was 8K words and a random-access device to hold the system. For some devices, OS/8 requires 12K. There are a large number of OS/8 versions that are not quite portable across various subsets of the PDP-8 family. OS/8 V3D was renamed OS/78 (to match the VT78), and by the time OS/78 V3 was released, support for Omnibus machines was no longer important. OS/78 V4 was developed for the DECmate I, and the name OS/278 used for the versions released with later DECmate machines. These have unnecessary incompatabilities with earlier versions of OS/8. OS/278 and related material is available from: ftp://ftp.telebit.com/pub/pdp8/os278 ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp8 ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/os8 OS8 (no slash) may still be viable. It requires 8K of main memory, an extended arithmetic unit, and DECtape hardware. Unlike most PDP-8 operating systems, it uses a directory structure on DECtape compatible with that used on the PDP-10. TSS/8 was developed in 1968 as a timesharing system. It required a minimum of 12K words of memory and a swapping device. It was the standard operating system on the EduSystem 50 which was sold to many small colleges and large public school systems. Each user gets a virtual 4K PDP-8; many of the utilities users ran on these virtual machines were only slightly modified versions of utilities from the Disk Monitor System or paper-tape environments. Other timesharing systems developed for the PDP-8 include MULTI-8, ETOS, MULTOS, and OMNI-8; some of these required nonstandard memory management hardware. By the mid 1970's, some of these were true virtual machine operating systems in the same spirit as IBM's VM-370; they typically supported some version of OS/8 running on a 32K virtual PDP-8 assigned to each user. Some could support different user operating systems on each virtual machine, others supported addressing of more than 4K for data, but limited code to field zero of a process's virtual memory. The source for MULTOS is available from: ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp8/multos8 CAPS-8 was a cassette based operating system supporting PAL and BASIC. There are OS/8 utilities to manipulate CAPS-8 cassettes, and the file format on cassette is compatible with a PDP-11 based system called CAPS-11. RTS/8 was a real-time system developed by DEC, developed from an earlier system, SRT8, dating back to at least 1974. Curiously, even the last versions of RTS/8 continued to support paper-tape and DECtape. Source code for most of the versions of RTS and SRT are available from: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/rts8 WPS was DEC's word processing system, developed for the 8/E with a VT50 terminal with special WPS keycaps replacing the standard keycaps, and widely used on the 1980's vintage machines. It was heavily promoted on the VT-78, and when the DECmates came out, DEC began to suppress knowledge that DECmates could run anything else. WPS-11 was a curious distributed system using a PDP-11 as a file server for a cluster of VT-78 WPS systems. COS-310, DEC's commercial operating system for the PDP-8, supported the DIBOL language. COS-310 was a derivative of MS/8 and OS/8, but with a new text file format. The file system is almost the same as OS/8, but dates are recorded differently, and a few applications can even run under both COS and OS/8. COS was the last operating system other than WPS promoted by DEC for the DECmates. ------------------------------ Subject: What programming languages are supported on the PDP-8 The PAL family of assembly languages, particularly PAL III and PAL8 are as close to a standard assembly language as can be found for the PDP-8. These produce absolute object code and there are versions of PAL for minimally configured machines, although these have severe symbol table limitations. MACRO-8 was DEC's first macro assembly language for the PDP-8, but it was rarely used outside the paper-tape environment. MACREL and SABR are assembly languages that produce relocatable output. SABR is the final pass for the ALICS II FORTRAN compiler (developed by ICS), and MACREL was developed in (unfulfilled) anticipation of similar use. MACREL was heavily used by the DECmate group at DEC. MACREL is available from ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp8/os8 There was also RALF, the relocatable assembler supporting RTPS FORTRAN, and FLAP, an absolute assembler derived from RALF. Both SABR and RALF/FALP are assemblers that handle their intended applications but have quirky and incompatible syntax. A subset of FORTRAN was supported on both the PDP-5 and the original PDP-8. Surviving documentation describes a DEC compiler from 1964 and a compiler written by Information Control Systems from 1968. The latter, ALICS II FORTRAN, was originally a paper tape based compiler, but it forms the basis of the OS/8 8K FORTRAN compiler, and was also adapted to the Disk Monitor System (the latter version had overlay support that was never carried forward into more modern systems). RTPS FORTRAN required 8K and a floating point processor; it had real-time extensions and was a full implementation of FORTRAN IV (also known as ANSI FORTRAN 66). OS/8 F4 is RTPS FORTRAN stripped of the requirement for hardware floating point (if the hardware is missing, it uses software emulation). A version of FORTRAN is available from ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp8/os8 FOCAL, an interpretive language comparable to BASIC, was available on all models of the family, including the PDP-5 and PDP-8/S. Versions of FOCAL run under OS/8, P?S/8 and other systems, and there were many special purpose overlays for FOCAL developed by DEC and by various users. DEC's later FOCAL releases for the PDP-8 included code to deliberately introduce subtle bugs when run on a DCC 112 computer! Various versions of FOCAL are available from: ftp://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/pub/DEC/PDP8/Langs/Focal Many versions of BASIC were also available, from DEC and other sources. DEC BASIC was widely used on PDP-8 systems sold under the EduSystem marketing program. A paper-tape version was available that ran in 4K and was compatible with disk based systems, versions were developed for OS/8 and TSS/8, an 8K stand-alone time-sharing version was available, and there were others. EduSystem 25 Basic is available from: ftp://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/pub/DEC/PDP8/Langs/Edu25Basic DIBOL was DEC's attempt at competing with COBOL in the commercial arena. It was originally implemented under MS/8 but most versions were sold to run under the COS operating system. Algol was available from a fairly early date. One version is available from: ftp://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/pub/DEC/PDP8/Langs/Algol At least two Pascal compilers were developed for the PDP-8. One was a Pascal-S interpreter, written in assembler, the other was a Pascal-P compiler with a P-code interpreter written in assembler. A LISP interpreters was written for the PDP-8; the original version ran in 4K (originally written in Germany?); a disassembled and commented version of this was the basis of expanded versions that eventually could utilize up to 16K. One version of LISP is available from: ftp://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/pub/DEC/PDP8/Langs/Lisp A Pascal S interpreter, requiring a 28K PDP-8/E configuration, is available from: ftp://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/pub/DEC/PDP8/Langs/Pascal POLY SNOBOL was a version of SNOBOL that was somewhere between Griswold's definitions of SNOBOL 3 and SNOBOL 4. TECO, the text editor, is available, and is also a general purpose language, and someone is working on a PDP-8 C. The story of TECO on the PDP-8 is convoluted. Russ Ham implemented TECO under his OS8 (without a slash) system. This version of TECO was pirated by the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI), where the system was ported to PS/8. Richard Lary and Stan Rabinowitz made it more compatible with other versions of TECO, and the result of this work is the version distributed by DECUS. RT-11 TECO for the PDP-11 is a port of this code. ------------------------------ Subject: Where can I get PDP-8 software? DECUS, the DEC User Society, is still alive and well, and their submission form still lists PAL8 and FOCAL as languages in which they accept submissions! The DECUS library catalog is available on-line by anonymous FTP at decus.org (but note, www cannot access this site!). To quote the README file from the current on-line catalog, "Items from older DECUS Library catalogs are still also available (provided their media can still be read), but machine readable catalog information is not available for these." Direct questions by E-mail to INFORMATION@DECUS.ORG. The following anonymous FTP sites contain publically accessable archives of PDP-8 software and other information: ftp://ftp.telebit.com/pub/pdp8 ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp8 ftp://nickel.ucs.indiana.edu/pub/DEC/PDP8 ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8 The latter archive also maintains an archive of traffic in alt.sys.pdp8 in the directory ...pdp8/usenet and an archive of traffic in the pdp8-lovers mailing list in .../pdp8/pdp8-lovers. The archive at Indiana contains source code for many PDP-8 compilers and interpreters, as well as common utilities and games. ------------------------------ Subject: Where can I get additional information? The file WHAT-IS-A-PDP8, by Charles Lasner contains considerable additional information; this file is available by ftp from: ftp://ftp.telebit.com/pub/pdp8/WHAT-IS-A-PDP8 This file gives details of every PDP-8 model including the small quirks and incompatabilities that (to be generous) allow software to determine which model it is running on. These quirks also make it all too easy for careless programmers to write almost portable software with very obscure bugs. The mailing list pdp8-lovers@ai.mit.edu reaches a number of PDP-8 owners and users, not all of whom have USENET feeds. The USENET newsgroup alt.sys.pdp8 needs to be gatewayed to this mailing list. Many "archival" books have included fairly complete descriptions of the PDP-8; among them, "Computer Architecture, Readings and Examples" by Gordon Bell and Allen Newell is among the most accurate and complete (but difficult to read). ------------------------------ Subject: What use is a PDP-8 today? What use is a Model T today? Collectors of both come in the same basic classes. First, there are antiquarians who keep an old one in the garage, polished and restored to new condition but hardly ever used. Once a year, they warm it up and use it, just to prove that it still works, but they don't make much practical use of it. PDP-8 systems maintained by antiquarians are frequently in beautiful shape. Antiquarians worry about dust, chipped paint, and missing switches, and they establish newsgroups and mailing lists to help them locate parts and the advice needed to fix their machines. In the second class are those who find old machines and soup them up, replacing major parts to make a hotrod that only looks like the original from the outside, or keeping the old mechanism and putting it to uses that were never intended. Some PDP-8 owners, for example, have built PDP-8 systems with modern SCSI disk interfaces! There is serious interest in some quarters in constructing an omnibus board that would support an IDE disk of the variety that was mass-produced for the IBM PC/AT. Last, there are the old folks who still use their old machines for their intended purposes long after any sane economic analysis would recommend such use. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and if it can be fixed, why bother replacing it? Both Model T Fords and the classic PDP-8 machines are simple enough that end users can maintain and repair them indefinitely. All you need to keep a vintage -8 running are a stock of inexpensive silicon diodes and a stock of 2N3639B or better, 2N3640 transistors. Unlike most modern personal computers, PDP-8 systems were routinely sold with complete maintenance manuals; these included schematic diagrams, explanations of not only how to use the devices, but how they are built, and suggestions to those considering building their own peripherals. Compared with many so-called "open systems" of today, the PDP-8 was far better documented and far more open. Preservation of the PDP-8 has proven to be of immense practical value in defending against the rising tide of patents in the area of interactive graphics. For example, when Magnavox sued Nintendo for half a billion dollars, a documented copy of a ping pong game, written on a LINC back in the early 1960's, was crucial to the proof that computer games predated the Magnavox patent by over 5 years. The fact that this can be run today on a surviving LINC-8 makes demonstrating this proof far easier than if the only surviving relic was a dusty listing. Finally, the PDP-8 is such a minimal machine that it is an excellent introduction to how computers really work. Over the years, many students have built complete working PDP-8 systems from scratch as lab projects, and the I/O environment on a PDP-8 is simple enough that it is a very appropriate environment for learning operating system programming techniques. ------------------------------ Subject: Who's Who? C. Gordon Bell is generally credited with the original design of the PDP-8. He was also involved with recommending what became the PDP-11 when that design was competing with the design that probably became the NOVA, and as vice president of research, he oversaw the development of the DEC VAX family. Alan Kotok worked with Bell in working up the original specifications of the PDP-8. Ben Gurley designed most of the big DEC machines, starting with the PDP-1. The actual design work on the -8, however, was done by Ed deCastro, who later founded Data General to build the Nova. Ken Olson ran DEC from the beginning. Ed Yourdon, who later became well known as a programming methodology guru, helped hack up the PAL III assembler for the -8 from PAL II. Richard Merrill invented FOCAL and wrote the original (1968) and classic FOCAL-69 interpreters for the PDP-8. He also did early translations of the interpreter to PDP-7/PDP-9 code and perhaps the earliest PDP-11 version. In addition, he wrote the EDIT-8 paper-tape based text editor based on the FOCAL built-in text editor. Charles Lasner developed P?S/8, and he is widely known as a leader in the movement to preserve these historic machines. He created the alt.sys.pdp8 newsgroup. Wesley Clark developed the LINC while working at Lincoln Labs; this was the first 12 bit minicomputer built with DEC parts. Mary Allen Wilkes Clark developed the early LAP programs for the LINC. Douglas W. Jones wrote this FAQ, but prior to the summer of 1992, he'd never used a PDP-8. He has also written a report on how to photocopy and archivally bind ailing paperback books such as DEC's handouts, a PAL-like cross assembler in C, and a UNIX-based PDP-8 emulator. ------------------------------ End of PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) ****************************************************************** From alderson@netcom.com Wed Aug 10 01:14:29 EDT 1994 Article: 987 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.folklore.computers Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!pacbell.com!att-out!cbnewsj!cbnewsi!gw1!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) In-Reply-To: jones@cs.uiowa.edu's message of 8 Aug 94 08:08:08 GMT Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u52/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 00:16:18 GMT Lines: 20 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.sys.pdp8:987 alt.folklore.computers:71624 In article <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) writes: >Corrections and additions to this list are welcome! The prices given are for >minimal systems in the year the machine was first introduced. The bits column >indicates the word size. Note that the DEC PDP-10 became the DECSYSTEM-20 as >a result of marketing considerations, and DEC's VAX series of machines began >as the Virtual Address eXtension of the never-produced PDP-11/78. Welcome but ignored? Once again, I have to point that the DECSYSTEM-20 differs from the DECsystem-10 in both hardware and software. Maybe it's time for alt.sys.pdp10... -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ From mol@trurl.df.lth.se Wed Aug 10 01:15:58 EDT 1994 Article: 988 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!news.lth.se!mol From: mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,comp.arch,alt.config,comp.sys.dec Subject: Proposal for PDP-10 group (was: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month)) Followup-To: alt.config,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec Date: 9 Aug 1994 07:30:51 GMT Organization: yacc - the Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology Lines: 45 Message-ID: <327bbb$2vj@nic.lth.se> References: <326pe2$lb8@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: trurl.df.lth.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71638 alt.sys.pdp8:988 comp.arch:35440 alt.config:37441 comp.sys.dec:21718 In article <326pe2$lb8@nexus.uiowa.edu>, Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 wrote: >From article , >by alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III): >> Maybe it's time for alt.sys.pdp10... > >I would strongly encourage the creation of a FAQ for the PDP-10, either >in a newsgroup devoted to that marvelous machine, or if you want, posted >to alt.sys.pdp8. Yes! Please do! >The PDP-10 was a very important machine in the history >of academic computer science, and particularly in the history of >artificial intelligence research. An effort to provide an introduction >to that architecture, an index of places where surviving software is >archived, and pointers to efforts to construct emulators or other >tools for preserving the machine's legacy would be very much worth >while! Do it! Even though I have rather limited experience and knowledge of PDP-10's I know enough to want to know more. I second Doug's proposal wholeheartedly. Since the alt.sys.pdp8 and alt.os.multics groups have been such successes, I hope a pdp10 group might be equally successful. Also, there's a new reason: There's one company that's actually started making a new computer model which uses the PDP 10 architecture. I haven't heard much about them lately, but they seem to be a sign of the survivability of the PDP 10 architecture. If you think alt.sys.pdp10 is a good idea I could help you creating it. Or maybe we should go the whole hog and issue an RFD for comp.sys.pdp10? NOTE: I'm crossposting this to a whole bunch of newsgroups. I've directed followups to alt.folklore.computers, alt.config and comp.sys.dec only, though, to keep down traffic in high-volume groups such as comp.arch. Magnus Olsson | \e+ /_ yacc - the Computer Society at LU and LTH | \ Z / q Lund, Sweden | >----< magnus@thep.lu.se, mol@loglady.df.lth.se | / \===== g PGP key available via finger or on request | /e- \q From rflukes@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca Wed Aug 10 01:16:22 EDT 1994 Article: 989 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!utgpu!utcsri!newsflash.concordia.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!silver.cs.umanitoba.ca!rflukes From: rflukes@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Richard F. Lukes) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: FREE: Diablo HyTYPE II Manual Date: 9 Aug 1994 16:37:20 GMT Organization: The University of Manitoba Lines: 13 Distribution: na Message-ID: <328bc0$4ug@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: silver.cs.umanitoba.ca I was cleaning out my basement and found a brand new maintenance manual for the Xerox Diablo HyTYPE II daisy wheel printer. This is the model which was used as the printer with the WT-78 series of PDP8 microprocessors. Free to a good home, if you pay for shipping. Thanks, --Rich -- Richard F. Lukes rflukes@silver.cs.UManitoba.CA Computer Science Department University of Manitoba HOME: (204)-257-6701 Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA WORK: (204)-474-8696 From lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu Wed Aug 10 01:25:17 EDT 1994 Article: 990 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!lasner From: lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu (Charles Lasner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Date: 10 Aug 1994 05:25:55 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 18 Message-ID: <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71746 alt.sys.pdp8:990 In article , Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >In article <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) >writes: >Once again, I have to point that the DECSYSTEM-20 differs from the DECsystem-10 >in both hardware and software. And once again you have to be proven wrong. TOPS-10 has been run on DECSYSTEM-20. KL10 in red cabinets and blue cabinets changes the name but not the hardware. If I choose to run P?S/8 on my PDP-8 instead of OS/8, do I have to change the name of the hardware? And if I take it out of the H960 cabinet and place it on the table or in a non-DEC rack, do I have to change the name? cjl (A PDP-8 by any other name ...) From aad@lovecraft.amd.com Wed Aug 10 16:40:47 EDT 1994 Article: 991 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.sys.convex Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!amd!amdint.amd.com!txnews.amd.com!lovecraft!aad From: aad@lovecraft.amd.com (Anthony D'Atri) Subject: Free VT62, DZ11, M9312, CIT-101, Unibus cables, Convex boards Message-ID: Sender: news@txnews.amd.com Nntp-Posting-Host: lovecraft Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Austin, TX, USA Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 05:16:24 GMT Lines: 8 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.sys.pdp8:991 comp.sys.convex:632 VT62 in working order DZ11 & M9312 bootstrap terminator in unknown order BC11 (I think) Unibus cables CIT-101 needs video work Various *scrapped* C1 & C2 boards Free to anyone picking it up in Austin or paying shipping From bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 10 16:43:01 EDT 1994 Article: 992 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!sundance.llnl.gov!osi-east2.es.net!cronkite.nersc.gov!dancer.ca.sandia.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!newsfeed.ACO.net!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!sunic!columba.udac.uu.se!Krille.Update.UU.SE!Krille.Update.UU.SE!not-for-mail From: bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Date: 10 Aug 1994 18:42:39 +0200 Organization: Update Computer Club Lines: 31 Message-ID: <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: krille.update.uu.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71801 alt.sys.pdp8:992 In <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: >In article , >Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >>In article <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) >>writes: >>Once again, I have to point that the DECSYSTEM-20 differs from the DECsystem-10 >>in both hardware and software. >And once again you have to be proven wrong. TOPS-10 has been run on >DECSYSTEM-20. KL10 in red cabinets and blue cabinets changes the name but >not the hardware. Hmmm, are you really sure about this, cjl? The DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 sure used the same CPU, but I am pretty sure they have different pager boxes. Maybe I should dig through the manuals, but they are stashed away together with our DEC-2060 right now. Also, there were hardware differences between the KL10A and KL10B. You could only run TOPS-20 on the KL10B, but you could run TOPS-10 on the KL10A or KL10B (also if my memory is correct). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Thu Aug 11 20:37:27 EDT 1994 Article: 993 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!newsfeed.ACO.net!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Date: 10 Aug 1994 20:42:05 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <32be2t$pci@nexus.uiowa.edu> References: <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71833 alt.sys.pdp8:993 From article <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE>, by bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist): > > The DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 sure used the same CPU, but I am > pretty sure they have different pager boxes. > Maybe I should dig through the manuals, but they are stashed away > together with our DEC-2060 right now. Ah, so the DECSYSTEM-10 and the DECSYSTEM-20 were about as different as a PDP-8/E with the standard M837 KM8E memory extension control and a PDP-8/E with a different memory manager, perhaps the one designed to support one of the timesharing systems for the -8 that required a nonstandard memory manager. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From alderson@netcom.com Thu Aug 11 20:39:39 EDT 1994 Article: 994 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!sundance.llnl.gov!osi-east2.es.net!cronkite.nersc.gov!dancer.ca.sandia.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) In-Reply-To: bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE's message of 10 Aug 1994 18:42:39 +0200 Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u52/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 22:39:14 GMT Lines: 55 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71847 alt.sys.pdp8:994 In article <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) writes: >In <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu (Charles Lasner) >writes: >>In article , >>Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >>>Once again, I have to point that the DECSYSTEM-20 differs from the >>>DECsystem-10 in both hardware and software. >>And once again you have to be proven wrong. TOPS-10 has been run on >>DECSYSTEM-20. KL10 in red cabinets and blue cabinets changes the name but >>not the hardware. Matter of definition. The difference between the DEC-20 and the DEC-10 is primarily, though not entirely, the software. A KL10 running Tops-10 is a DEC-10, not a DEC-20. It wasn't until 1988 that they ran the same microcode. The hardware does matter, though: The -10 uses a different I/O and memory bus than the -20 (although eventually Tops-10 was modified to allow it to run on the -20 hardware, and vice versa). >Hmmm, are you really sure about this, cjl? Probably. >The DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 sure used the same CPU, but I am pretty sure >they have different pager boxes. Pagers, I/O, other differences. >Maybe I should dig through the manuals, but they are stashed away together >with our DEC-2060 right now. Mine are right here on my desk. >Also, there were hardware differences between the KL10A and KL10B. You could >only run TOPS-20 on the KL10B, but you could run TOPS-10 on the KL10A or KL10B >(also if my memory is correct). Nonsense. The original box for Tops-20 is the KL10A without cache or extended addressing (the 2040). The 2050 adds the cache, and the 2060 adds extended addressing (which we think late versions of the Tops-10 monitor used, though it was not available to -10 user code). The 2065 is a 2060 with a bigger, faster cache and more main memory. Both operating systems ran fine on all of them. In addition, they both ran on the KS10 (2020), which only had 512KW available. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ From weiner@world.std.com Thu Aug 11 20:40:35 EDT 1994 Article: 995 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!sundance.llnl.gov!osi-east2.es.net!cronkite.nersc.gov!dancer.ca.sandia.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!newsfeed.ACO.net!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!world!weiner From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 00:08:12 GMT Lines: 49 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71849 alt.sys.pdp8:995 In article <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE>, Johnny Billquist wrote: >In <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu (Charles Lasner) writes: > >>In article , >>Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >>>In article <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) >>>writes: > >>>Once again, I have to point that the DECSYSTEM-20 differs from the DECsystem-10 >>>in both hardware and software. > >>And once again you have to be proven wrong. TOPS-10 has been run on >>DECSYSTEM-20. KL10 in red cabinets and blue cabinets changes the name but ORANGE ^^^ >>not the hardware. > >Hmmm, are you really sure about this, cjl? > >The DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 sure used the same CPU, but I am >pretty sure they have different pager boxes. The KL pager was microcoded. The proper code was loaded during boot. >Maybe I should dig through the manuals, but they are stashed away >together with our DEC-2060 right now. While I no longer have access to a -10 or -20 (come on XKL, put a system or two on the net already!) I do have most of a manual set handy. > >Also, there were hardware differences between the KL10A and KL10B. >You could only run TOPS-20 on the KL10B, but you could run TOPS-10 >on the KL10A or KL10B (also if my memory is correct). Taking a quick look at the KL10A and KL10B TOPS-20 installation manuals, it turns out that you can run TOPS-20 4.1 on a KL10A. Anything above that requires a KL10B. The last (still current?) setup in Salem NH had both KL1026 (TOPS-10) and GIDNEY (TOPS-20) running on a 2065 depending which disks were used for booting and set on-line. Ah, for the days when the lab in Marlboro had 10 systems (and that was in 1986 when things started winding down.) Sam ex-Digital, ex-LCG (anyone need an old TOPS-x0 systems type? I also do UNIX and DBMS.) From bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 11 20:40:57 EDT 1994 Article: 996 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!columba.udac.uu.se!Krille.Update.UU.SE!Krille.Update.UU.SE!not-for-mail From: bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Date: 11 Aug 1994 12:11:19 +0200 Organization: Update Computer Club Lines: 26 Message-ID: <32ctgl$2tf@Krille.Update.UU.SE> References: <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> <32be2t$pci@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: krille.update.uu.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71888 alt.sys.pdp8:996 In <32be2t$pci@nexus.uiowa.edu> jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: >From article <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE>, >by bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist): >> >> The DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 sure used the same CPU, but I am >> pretty sure they have different pager boxes. >> Maybe I should dig through the manuals, but they are stashed away >> together with our DEC-2060 right now. >Ah, so the DECSYSTEM-10 and the DECSYSTEM-20 were about as different >as a PDP-8/E with the standard M837 KM8E memory extension control >and a PDP-8/E with a different memory manager, perhaps the one >designed to support one of the timesharing systems for the -8 that >required a nonstandard memory manager. Exactly. Anybody got ETOS-8? :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 11 20:41:50 EDT 1994 Article: 997 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!columba.udac.uu.se!Krille.Update.UU.SE!Krille.Update.UU.SE!not-for-mail From: bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Date: 11 Aug 1994 12:18:08 +0200 Organization: Update Computer Club Lines: 69 Message-ID: <32ctte$362@Krille.Update.UU.SE> References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> NNTP-Posting-Host: krille.update.uu.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71889 alt.sys.pdp8:997 In alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) writes: >In article <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE >(Johnny Billquist) writes: >>In <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> lasner@sunSITE.unc.edu (Charles Lasner) >>writes: >>>In article , >>>Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >>>>Once again, I have to point that the DECSYSTEM-20 differs from the >>>>DECsystem-10 in both hardware and software. >>>And once again you have to be proven wrong. TOPS-10 has been run on >>>DECSYSTEM-20. KL10 in red cabinets and blue cabinets changes the name but >>>not the hardware. >Matter of definition. The difference between the DEC-20 and the DEC-10 is >primarily, though not entirely, the software. A KL10 running Tops-10 is a >DEC-10, not a DEC-20. It wasn't until 1988 that they ran the same microcode. Aha! This might explain my confusion. >The hardware does matter, though: The -10 uses a different I/O and memory bus >than the -20 (although eventually Tops-10 was modified to allow it to run on >the -20 hardware, and vice versa). >>Hmmm, are you really sure about this, cjl? >Probably. >>The DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 sure used the same CPU, but I am pretty sure >>they have different pager boxes. >Pagers, I/O, other differences. >>Maybe I should dig through the manuals, but they are stashed away together >>with our DEC-2060 right now. >Mine are right here on my desk. >>Also, there were hardware differences between the KL10A and KL10B. You could >>only run TOPS-20 on the KL10B, but you could run TOPS-10 on the KL10A or KL10B >>(also if my memory is correct). >Nonsense. The original box for Tops-20 is the KL10A without cache or extended >addressing (the 2040). The 2050 adds the cache, and the 2060 adds extended >addressing (which we think late versions of the Tops-10 monitor used, though it >was not available to -10 user code). The 2065 is a 2060 with a bigger, faster >cache and more main memory. >Both operating systems ran fine on all of them. In addition, they both ran on >the KS10 (2020), which only had 512KW available. T20 stopped working on the KS10 as of V5. The last version of T20 for the 2020 was 4.2, but it was 7.1(?) for the KL10 machines. Got you there... :-) (I'm not entirely sure of the reason why, though. Memory constraints or hardwarre... Beats me. Never played physical with a -2020). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From alderson@netcom.com Fri Aug 12 11:01:24 EDT 1994 Article: 998 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!pacbell.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!alderson From: alderson@netcom.com (Richard M. Alderson III) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) In-Reply-To: bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE's message of 11 Aug 1994 12:18:08 +0200 Message-ID: Reply-To: alderson@netcom.com Fcc: /u52/alderson/postings Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> <329od3$1096@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <32b02d$6gm@Krille.Update.UU.SE> <32ctte$362@Krille.Update.UU.SE> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 20:28:51 GMT Lines: 38 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:71964 alt.sys.pdp8:998 In article <32ctte$362@Krille.Update.UU.SE> bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) writes: >In alderson@netcom.com >(Richard M. Alderson III) writes: >>Both operating systems ran fine on all of them. In addition, they both ran >>on the KS10 (2020), which only had 512KW available. >T20 stopped working on the KS10 as of V5. >The last version of T20 for the 2020 was 4.2, but it was 7.1(?) for >the KL10 machines. 7.0; I was one of the field test sites, and chaired the DECUS session at which it was announced to a room set up for 400 people. Never mind that there were maybe 20 there. ;-> >Got you there... :-) >(I'm not entirely sure of the reason why, though. Memory constraints >or hardwarre... Beats me. Never played physical with a -2020). Little of both: Version 5 ran in extended memory only, which was unavailable on the 2020. However, it remained a *supported* processor and version until the end. Note that I wasn't necessarily talking about the latest version of each operating system: Tops-10 7.04 uses Tops-20 paging, and may not run on anyting but a KL10B. (I've never been a -10 person, so I'm not fully up on their limitations or advantages.) Oh, that reminds me: Another major difference between Tops-10 and Tops-20 is that the former can handle symmetric multiprocessor configurations; the latter is strictly uniprocessor. -- Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo- logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or what not. --J. R. R. Tolkien, alderson@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_ From mol@loglady.df.lth.se Fri Aug 12 11:02:38 EDT 1994 Article: 999 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!news.lth.se!loglady.df.lth.se!mol From: mol@loglady.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp11,news.groups Subject: Proposal: alt.sys.pdp10 Followup-To: alt.config Date: 12 Aug 1994 08:51:33 GMT Organization: yacc - the Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology Lines: 35 Message-ID: <32fd6l$srj@nic.lth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: loglady.df.lth.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.config:37894 alt.folklore.computers:72009 comp.sys.dec:21830 alt.sys.pdp8:999 news.groups:88390 (Please note the Followup-To line) I propose the creation of the group alt.sys.pdp10. The purpose of the group would be the discussion of all aspects of PDP-10 and DEC-20 computers and clones, their architecture, assembly language, and their various operating systems (TOPS-10, Tenex, TOPS-20, ITS). Also, it could be a place to discuss the culture and folklore of these systems, and for old PDP gurus to propagate their wisdom. I'm well aware that there aren't many of these systems left running nowadays, but I know that there are lots of people on the net with experience from them. Also, lots of younger people who've grown up with VAXen have heard about these fabulous machines and are intersted in learning more. Hopefully, this can generate quite a lot of traffic (if you don't believe me, check out alt.os.multics, which has been a success despite dealing with a dying system). It should also be mentioned that there are already the groups alt.sys.pdp8 and alt.sys.pdp11. The group has been proposed and discussed during the week on alt.sys.pdp8, alt.folklore.computers and parts of the discussion has been crossposted to alt.config. This is a more formal announcement, according to the altnet guidelines, that if there are no substantial objections I will send out a newgroup message for alt.sys.pdp10 in a week (i.e. Friday August 19). Magnus Olsson | \e+ /_ yacc - the Computer Society at LU and LTH | \ Z / q Lund, Sweden | >----< magnus@thep.lu.se, mol@loglady.df.lth.se | / \===== g PGP key available via finger or on request | /e- \q From geremin@decus.org.au Sat Aug 13 14:42:24 EDT 1994 Article: 1000 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.cs.su.oz.au!metro!decus!geremin From: geremin@decus.org.au Newsgroups: decus.nop,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: NOP SIG meeting for August in OZ. Message-ID: <1994Aug13.224007.14973@decus.org.au> Date: 13 Aug 94 22:40:07 AEST Organization: DECUS Australia Lines: 36 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu vmsnet.pdp-11:1436 alt.sys.pdp8:1000 DECUS Australia * NOP SIG - August, 94 Meetings, ---------------- ======== ========== -------- AGM When : 15:00 - Murray Room, Thursday, 25th August, 1994. --- Where: Canberra - National Convention Centre. Why : To present the Chairman's Annual Report. To Elect a Committee for 94-95 operations. Presentation of awards. Report on Inaugral Meeting of Aust. Comp. Museum Society. Other business from members. Who : At least ten official NOP SIG members. Monthly When : 18:00 (approx), on Wednesday, 31st August, 1994. ------- Where: Dale Woodside's, 442 Pennant Hills Road, Beecroft. Note - parking in back street. (Boots at back door). Why : DECUS-94 Symposium report. 1994 Board Elections. NOP SIG brochure/public image - Tom Gayford. NOP SIG Mission Statement - (bring suggestions). Relations with Aust. Comp. Museum Society. September meeting location. RSVP : Dale on 02-484 0160. JAG for Mike Chevallier, NOP SIG chairman. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^- From mol@trurl.df.lth.se Tue Aug 16 14:06:22 EDT 1994 Article: 1001 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!pipex!sunic!news.lth.se!mol From: mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Group for old computers (was: RFD: alt.sys.obsolete (Was: Re: Proposal for PDP-10 group)) Date: 16 Aug 1994 11:24:57 GMT Organization: yacc - the Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology Lines: 72 Message-ID: <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> References: <11AUG199408483833@almach.caltech.edu> <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se> <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: trurl.df.lth.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72364 comp.sys.dec:21925 vmsnet.pdp-11:1453 alt.sys.pdp8:1001 In article <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu>, Timothy D. Shoppa x4256 wrote: >In article <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se>, mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) writes... [about vmsnet.pdp11] >Yes, there exists a good amount of opposition to the vmsnet hierarchy >at many sites. IMHO the vmsnet hierarchy may have made sense when it was created (since Usnete used to be much more Unix-dominated than it is today) but I have some difficulty understanding the need for a top-level hierarchy for a specific operating system.(I'm of course referring to the hierarchy as such, *not* to the discussions going on which I'm sure make very much sense indeed). Let's at least be grateful there's not a special msdos-net hierarchy... :-) >Still, it is more widely distributed than alt.sys.pdp11, >and carries substantially more traffic. [...] >I am all for the creation of newsgroups that will broaden the >access of readres to older-hardware-related issues. However, alt.* >newsgroups that are viewed as duplicates of already well-established >groups often have substantially poorer distribution than >the established groups; this is reflected in the stats above. I agree with you, and can only lament the fact that vmsnet isn't considered "interesting", "politically correct" or whatever by many sysadmins :-(. >I strongly the believe the best route to take would be creation >of a comp.sys.dec.pdp (or similarly-named) newsgroup, which would >cover all older DEC hardware. I don't really think so. A PDP-8 doesn't have very much in common with a DEC-20. IMHO it's important for psychological reasons to have separate groups for machines that are so different - if nothing else, otherwise ther might be a feeling that a hypothetical comp.sys.pdp would be "taken over" by, say, PDP-11 discussion, and that PDP-10 discussion wouldn't be appropriate (even though it would be expressly within charter). Witness the situation on alt.sys.pdp8: It has repeatedly been stated that discussion of _all_ PDP systems is welcome there, yet the discussion is exclusively about 8's. Newcomers see that, and of course they refrain from asking about 10's. I do think that there's sufficient traffic and interest both for comp.sys.pdp11 and comp.sys.pdp8. If anybody wants to go through the hassle of going through the RFD/CFV/vote proecdure for them I'd be happy, but I'm not going to do it myself (not right now, anyway). As for comp.sys.pdp10, well, I don't know. Let's try alt.sys.pdp10 first, shall we, and se how much interest it generates. >>2) A feeling that vmsnet isn't the right place for a pdp11 group >> (after all, you can't run VMS on a PDP-11). > >Not exactly true. Early versions of VMS were tested on a 11/70 emulating >the VAX instruction set. A friend of mine who was a DEC field service >engineer at the time is promising to deliver more details of this setup. I heard it the other way round: that VMS 1.0 was written in PDP-11 code, and that it ran using the VAX 11's compatibility mode. Only for version 2.0 did they move up to native 32-bit code. (Of course, it was only the OS itself that ran in compatibility mode; you could still se 32-bit code for applications). Magnus Olsson | \e+ /_ yacc - the Computer Society at LU and LTH | \ Z / q Lund, Sweden | >----< mol@df.lth.se / magnus.olsson@ivab.se | / \===== g PGP key available via finger or on request | /e- \q From moisan@bronze.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 16 14:07:17 EDT 1994 Article: 1002 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!news2.near.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!ai-lab!bronze.lcs.mit.edu!not-for-mail From: moisan@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (David Moisan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: RX50 problems--did they use special disks? Followup-To: poster Date: 16 Aug 1994 12:51:41 -0400 Organization: MIT LCS guest machine Lines: 23 Message-ID: <32qqqt$nd8@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bronze.ai.mit.edu Summary: How can I use regular IBM DSDD 5-1/4" media on DecMATE RX50? Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu comp.sys.dec:21940 comp.sys.dec.micro:3073 alt.folklore.computers:72408 alt.sys.pdp8:1002 I've a DECmate II I'm trying to get working, and I've run into a problem. I'm trying to copy a WPS-8 system disk, but it bombs everytime it activates drive 1. I'm using IBM-style 5-1/4" DSDD media, with hub rings, in that drive. System Test Disk indicates a Drive 1 problem. The DECmate is a standard config, single RX50, CP/M board (but no CP/M OS :''( ). I ran DEC's two-disk "Intro to MATH" tutorial, and it reported no problems when it ran the second drive. I once used a Rainbow, with, I believe, the same drive, and it required 96 TPI RX50 formatted disks. Can this be my problem? Is there a workaround? I'm stuck here and I'd really like to get this puppy going again. Thanks muchly in advance, Dave -- | David Moisan, N1KGH /^\_/^\ moisan@bronze.lcs.mit.edu | | 86 Essex St. Apt #204 ( o ^ o ) n1kgh@amsat.org | | Salem. MA 01970-5225 | | ce393@cleveland.freenet.edu | | | From cchd@lucifer.latrobe.edu.au Thu Aug 18 06:10:37 EDT 1994 Article: 1003 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!lugb!lucifer.latrobe.edu.au!cchd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Group for old computers (was: RFD: alt.sys.obsolete (Was: Re: Proposal for PDP-10 group)) Message-ID: <1994Aug17.025814.7642@lugb.latrobe.edu.au> From: cchd@lucifer.latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 02:58:14 GMT Sender: news@lugb.latrobe.edu.au (USENET News System) References: <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se> <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu> <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> Organization: La Trobe University Lines: 30 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72473 comp.sys.dec:21962 vmsnet.pdp-11:1461 alt.sys.pdp8:1003 In article <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) writes: > >>>2) A feeling that vmsnet isn't the right place for a pdp11 group >>> (after all, you can't run VMS on a PDP-11). >> >>Not exactly true. Early versions of VMS were tested on a 11/70 emulating >>the VAX instruction set. A friend of mine who was a DEC field service >>engineer at the time is promising to deliver more details of this setup. > >I heard it the other way round: that VMS 1.0 was written in PDP-11 code, >and that it ran using the VAX 11's compatibility mode. Only for version 2.0 >did they move up to native 32-bit code. (Of course, it was only the OS >itself that ran in compatibility mode; you could still se 32-bit code >for applications). My understanding was that some/most? of the development of VAX/VMS was done on pair of 11/70s with the second 11/70 doing most of the VAX code emultation. V1 of VMS was native - most applications software was emulated however. I'm off to DECUS Australia and I'll find out some more about the original VMS development - one of the original VAX architects will be there - perhaps he'll answer a few questions..... -- Huw Davies | Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Computing Services | Phone: +61 3 479 1500 Fax: +61 3 479 1999 La Trobe University | I own an Alfa to keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia | sense, but rich in so many other ways From lhauser@rs6a.wln.com Thu Aug 18 06:12:01 EDT 1994 Article: 1004 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!rs6a.wln.com!rs6a.wln.com!lhauser From: lhauser@rs6a.wln.com (Williams Kastner Gibbs) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: PDP-8 Emulator? Date: 17 Aug 1994 04:27:08 GMT Organization: WLN Lines: 8 Message-ID: <32s3is$lkj@rs6a.wln.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rs6a.wln.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8] Is there a PDP-8 emulator available already compiled for IBM-PC (286 or higher)? I have the C sources but no C compiler. Any help would be appreciated. Lee Hauser lhauser@wln.com From weiner@world.std.com Thu Aug 18 06:13:28 EDT 1994 Article: 1005 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!uhog.mit.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!world!weiner From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: PDP-8 Frequently Asked Questions (posted every other month) Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA References: <325b0i$2kd@nexus.uiowa.edu> <32ctte$362@Krille.Update.UU.SE> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 04:22:41 GMT Lines: 58 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72474 alt.sys.pdp8:1005 In article , Richard M. Alderson III wrote: >In article <32ctte$362@Krille.Update.UU.SE> bqt@Krille.Update.UU.SE >(Johnny Billquist) writes: > >>In alderson@netcom.com >>(Richard M. Alderson III) writes: > >>>Both operating systems ran fine on all of them. In addition, they both ran >>>on the KS10 (2020), which only had 512KW available. > >>T20 stopped working on the KS10 as of V5. >>The last version of T20 for the 2020 was 4.2, but it was 7.1(?) for >>the KL10 machines. > >7.0; I was one of the field test sites, and chaired the DECUS session at which >it was announced to a room set up for 400 people. Never mind that there were >maybe 20 there. ;-> Actually, the last KS/KL10A TOPS-20 version released by DEC was 4.1. I believe 4.2 was a Panda special (Mark?) > >>Got you there... :-) >>(I'm not entirely sure of the reason why, though. Memory constraints >>or hardwarre... Beats me. Never played physical with a -2020). > >Little of both: Version 5 ran in extended memory only, which was unavailable >on the 2020. However, it remained a *supported* processor and version until >the end. > >Note that I wasn't necessarily talking about the latest version of each >operating system: Tops-10 7.04 uses Tops-20 paging, and may not run on anyting >but a KL10B. (I've never been a -10 person, so I'm not fully up on their >limitations or advantages.) TOPS-10 7.04 does indeed run on a KS10 though it may lack some features (while I cut my teeth on TOPS-10 back in KA days, my time at DEC was spent in the TOPS-20 group so I'm not as up on things -10 either.) The wonders of MONGEN handled whatever differences there were. Rich, you should be able to look through the sources soon, right? > >Oh, that reminds me: Another major difference between Tops-10 and Tops-20 is >that the former can handle symmetric multiprocessor configurations; the latter >is strictly uniprocessor. TOPS-20 had clusters (aka Common File System or CFS) as of 6.1 (or 6.0?) which provided file sharing, including locking. Version 7.0 added a shared PS: (for login info), and cluster-wide ENQ (only 1022 used this as far as I know,) Galaxy, and INFO. TOPS-20 could have been made SMP fairly easily according to a document I found but most DECSYSTEM-20s weren't configured for the external memory required so it was more of a marketing than technical decision (the Jupiter design may have also been a factor.) Stanford supposedly had a TENEX-SMP system running. Sam ex-LCG, ex-Digital From omega@infi.net Thu Aug 18 06:13:41 EDT 1994 Article: 1006 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!larry.infi.net!omega From: omega@infi.net (Kenneth Martin) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP-8 Emulator? Date: 17 Aug 1994 09:17:34 GMT Organization: InfiNet Lines: 6 Message-ID: <32skje$b3q@lucy.infi.net> References: <32s3is$lkj@rs6a.wln.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: larry.infi.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Post the sources here, or E-Mail them to me, and I can compile/port it to DOS. -- The Omega Concern (Kenneth Martin), IZCC #136 omega@infi.net From McCrohan@iol.ie Thu Aug 18 06:13:54 EDT 1994 Article: 1007 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!ieunet!iol!iol!not-for-mail From: McCrohan@iol.ie (Mike McCrohan) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Group for old computers Date: 18 Aug 1994 10:14:52 +0100 Organization: Ireland On-Line Lines: 30 Sender: mccrohan@iol.ie Message-ID: <7hDKkGakfSRE069yn@iol.ie> References: <11AUG199408483833@almach.caltech.edu> <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se> <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu> <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulysses.iol.ie Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72597 comp.sys.dec:21991 vmsnet.pdp-11:1470 alt.sys.pdp8:1007 In article <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se>, mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote: > In article <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu>, > Timothy D. Shoppa x4256 wrote: > >In article <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se>, mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) writes... > >Not exactly true. Early versions of VMS were tested on a 11/70 emulating > >the VAX instruction set. A friend of mine who was a DEC field service > >engineer at the time is promising to deliver more details of this setup. > > I heard it the other way round: that VMS 1.0 was written in PDP-11 code, > and that it ran using the VAX 11's compatibility mode. Only for version 2.0 > did they move up to native 32-bit code. (Of course, it was only the OS > itself that ran in compatibility mode; you could still se 32-bit code > for applications). I think that the truth is somewhere between the two comments. VMS was designed/written by the same man (Dave Cutler) that wrote much of RSX-11/mumble. Many of the RSX utilities were used on VMS V1.n initially, running in compatability mode, but over time got re-written in native mode. It was about VMS V3.0 that all of VMS ran in native mode, finally. [Thoughts of deja vu wrt Alpha. Vax ported from the 11-base via HW compatability; Alpha is porting from VAX but with SW emulators. The speed of the successful migration of OS, tools, etc to alpha is all the more impressive when you look back at how long it took for VMS to go completely native and not be merely an RSX extension.] Dave C is, of course, the man heading up the Windows-NT effort. Ever wonder how come NT sounds so much like a VMS rewrite? From jleslie@dmccorp.com Thu Aug 18 06:14:12 EDT 1994 Article: 1008 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!igate.dmccorp.com!jleslie From: jleslie@dmccorp.com (Jerry Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Group for old computers Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Date: 18 Aug 1994 09:51:47 GMT Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 684 5969 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> References: <11AUG199408483833@almach.caltech.edu> <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se> <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu> <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> <7hDKkGakfSRE069yn@iol.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: igate.dmccorp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72599 comp.sys.dec:21993 vmsnet.pdp-11:1473 alt.sys.pdp8:1008 Mike McCrohan (McCrohan@iol.ie) wrote: : In article <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se>, mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) wrote: : > In article <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu>, : > Timothy D. Shoppa x4256 wrote: : > >In article <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se>, mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) writes... : Dave C is, of course, the man heading up the Windows-NT effort. Ever : wonder how come NT sounds so much like a VMS rewrite? And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ? This was done for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which is "IBM" transposed down by one letter. --Gerald (Jerry) R. Leslie Staff Engineer Dynamic Matrix Control Corporation (my opinions are my own) P.O. Box 721648 9896 Bissonnet Houston, Texas 77272 Houston, Texas, 77036 713/272-5065 713/272-5200 (fax) gleslie@isvsrv.enet.dec.com jleslie@dmccorp.com From mje@pookie.pass.wayne.edu Thu Aug 18 18:02:44 EDT 1994 Article: 1009 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news1.oakland.edu!news From: mje@pookie.pass.wayne.edu (Michael J. Edelman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Group for old computers Date: 18 Aug 1994 12:04:48 GMT Organization: Wayne State University Lines: 12 Message-ID: <32vip0$ek9@oak.oakland.edu> References: <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> Reply-To: mje@pookie.pass.wayne.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: pookie.pass.wayne.edu Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72617 comp.sys.dec:21996 vmsnet.pdp-11:1475 alt.sys.pdp8:1009 In article n12@uuneo.neosoft.com, jleslie@dmccorp.com (Jerry Leslie) writes: .. >And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the >acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ? This was done >for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which >is "IBM" transposed down by one letter. Both Kubrick and Clark claim this was just a lucky coincidence, and that the name HAL was chosen indepedantly of such considerations. --mike From lhauser@rs6a.wln.com Sat Aug 20 04:59:29 EDT 1994 Article: 1010 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!news.kei.com!rs6a.wln.com!rs6a.wln.com!lhauser From: lhauser@rs6a.wln.com (Williams Kastner Gibbs) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: Group for old computers Date: 19 Aug 1994 04:48:31 GMT Organization: WLN Lines: 17 Message-ID: <331div$k36@rs6a.wln.com> References: <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rs6a.wln.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8] Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72690 comp.sys.dec:22022 vmsnet.pdp-11:1482 alt.sys.pdp8:1010 Jerry Leslie (jleslie@dmccorp.com) wrote: : And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the : acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ? This was done : for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which : is "IBM" transposed down by one letter. Arthur C. Clarke has debunked the IBM/HAL myth. He claims that if he'd though of that angle, he would have changed the name, wanting nothing to do with IBM. HAL stands for Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer. That doesn't mean, of course, that someone at Mickeysoft doesn't believe that's true, and did indeed try the rot-1 transpostion of VMS... Lee From peter@nmti.com Sat Aug 20 05:00:02 EDT 1994 Article: 1011 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!news.uh.edu!uuneo.neosoft.com!nmtigw!peter From: peter@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Group for old computers Message-ID: Sender: peter@nmti.com (peter da silva) Organization: Network/development platform support, NMTI References: <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> <331div$k36@rs6a.wln.com> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 12:44:50 GMT Lines: 12 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72749 comp.sys.dec:22033 vmsnet.pdp-11:1484 alt.sys.pdp8:1011 In article <331div$k36@rs6a.wln.com>, Williams Kastner Gibbs wrote: > That doesn't mean, of course, that someone at Mickeysoft doesn't believe > that's true, and did indeed try the rot-1 transpostion of VMS... Dave Cutler's response to a question about the VMS/WNT naming connection was along the lines of "it took you THIS long to notice?"... -- Peter da Silva `-_-' Network Management Technology Incorporated 'U` 1601 Industrial Blvd. Sugar Land, TX 77478 USA +1 713 274 5180 "Hast Du heute schon Deinen Wolf umarmt?" From shendrix@escape.widomaker.com Sat Aug 20 05:00:16 EDT 1994 Article: 1012 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!newsfeed.ACO.net!news.sztaki.hu!EU.net!uunet!news.widomaker.com!escape!shendrix From: shendrix@escape.widomaker.com (Shannon Hendrix) Subject: Re: Group for old computers X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Organization: HNN UNIX Network Message-ID: <1994Aug19.141201.20757@escape.widomaker.com> References: <11AUG199408483833@almach.caltech.edu> <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se> <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu> <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> <7hDKkGakfSRE069yn@iol.ie> <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 1994 14:12:01 GMT Lines: 24 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72784 comp.sys.dec:22048 vmsnet.pdp-11:1490 alt.sys.pdp8:1012 Jerry Leslie (jleslie@dmccorp.com) wrote: : And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the : acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ? This was done : for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which : is "IBM" transposed down by one letter. That is NOT the reason for the name HAL. This is just a stupid rumor that has been thoroughly dismissed by Arthur C. Clarke. : --Gerald (Jerry) R. Leslie : Staff Engineer : Dynamic Matrix Control Corporation (my opinions are my own) : P.O. Box 721648 9896 Bissonnet : Houston, Texas 77272 Houston, Texas, 77036 : 713/272-5065 713/272-5200 (fax) : gleslie@isvsrv.enet.dec.com : jleslie@dmccorp.com -- csh --------------------------------------------------------------------------- shendrix@escape.widomaker.com (UUCP) | Amd486/40 Linux system shendrix@pcs.cnu.edu (Internet) | Christopher Newport University From mol@trurl.df.lth.se Sat Aug 20 14:05:11 EDT 1994 Article: 1013 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!news.lth.se!mol From: mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp10,comp.sys.dec,alt.config Subject: alt.sys.pdp10 created Followup-To: alt.config,alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 20 Aug 1994 12:56:09 GMT Organization: yacc - the Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology Lines: 11 Message-ID: <334uh9$4c3@nic.lth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: trurl.df.lth.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72856 alt.sys.pdp8:1013 comp.sys.dec:22076 alt.config:38529 I've just sent out a newgroup message for alt.sys.pdp10. It may take some time for the group to appear at your site. However, if it hasn't appeared at your site within a week you should talk to your news administrator. If he/she hasn't received the newgroup message, please email me and I'll try to fix it. Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se) / yacc computer club, Lund, Sweden Work: Innovativ Vision AB, Linkoping (magnus.olsson@ivab.se) Old adresses (may still work): magnus@thep.lu.se, thepmo@selund.bitnet PGP key available via finger (to df.lth.se) or on request. From moisan@bronze.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 24 03:00:02 EDT 1994 Article: 1014 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!ai-lab!bronze.lcs.mit.edu!not-for-mail From: moisan@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (David Moisan) Newsgroups: sci.electronics.repair,comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: DEC VR201 monitor modifications? Followup-To: sci.electronics.repair Date: 21 Aug 1994 19:13:02 -0400 Organization: MIT LCS guest machine Lines: 18 Message-ID: <338n1u$4gf@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bronze.ai.mit.edu Summary: Need to turn off monitor while DECmate still runs--possible? Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.electronics.repair:1971 comp.sys.dec:22102 comp.sys.dec.micro:3082 alt.sys.pdp8:1014 I've a DECmate that I expect to use as a TCP/IP router for my amateur radio setup. Problem is, I will need to run it 24hrs a day and since the monitor is always on when the system is running, it will kill the CRT before very long. (I replaced the original monitor on the DM for just this reason.) I'd been thinking of adding a small toggle switch to control the +12V supply in the monitor; however, DEC warns that unplugging the monitor while the system is running will cause damage. Would simply removing the monitor's power cause any problems? Any suggestions appreciated and thanks much, Dave -- | David Moisan, N1KGH /^\_/^\ moisan@bronze.lcs.mit.edu | | 86 Essex St. Apt #204 ( o ^ o ) n1kgh@amsat.org | | Salem. MA 01970-5225 | | ce393@cleveland.freenet.edu | | | From iyoung@alpha.wright.edu Wed Aug 24 03:00:24 EDT 1994 Article: 1015 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!wariat.org!malgudi.oar.net!mercury.wright.edu!iyoung From: iyoung@alpha.wright.edu (Ian Young) Subject: Re: Group for old computers Message-ID: Sender: news@mercury.wright.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio. References: <7hDKkGakfSRE069yn@iol.ie> <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> <1994Aug19.141201.20757@escape.widomaker.com> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 02:58:21 GMT Lines: 38 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72967 comp.sys.dec:22104 vmsnet.pdp-11:1506 alt.sys.pdp8:1015 In article <1994Aug19.141201.20757@escape.widomaker.com> shendrix@escape.widomaker.com (Shannon Hendrix) writes: >Jerry Leslie (jleslie@dmccorp.com) wrote: > >: And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the >: acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ? This was done >: for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which >: is "IBM" transposed down by one letter. > >That is NOT the reason for the name HAL. This is just a stupid rumor >that has been thoroughly dismissed by Arthur C. Clarke. > > >: --Gerald (Jerry) R. Leslie >: Staff Engineer >: Dynamic Matrix Control Corporation (my opinions are my own) >: P.O. Box 721648 9896 Bissonnet >: Houston, Texas 77272 Houston, Texas, 77036 >: 713/272-5065 713/272-5200 (fax) >: gleslie@isvsrv.enet.dec.com >: jleslie@dmccorp.com >-- >csh >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >shendrix@escape.widomaker.com (UUCP) | Amd486/40 Linux system >shendrix@pcs.cnu.edu (Internet) | Christopher Newport University Heuristic ALgorithmic H + AL = HAL (but the IBM rumour sounds better) -- Ian, barely speaking even for himsel | "Riding a Harley Hog with Uma | / iyoung@alpha.wright.edu | Thurman: That's heaven" | "the guy who tries to be funny, but | -K. D. Lang- | everybody laughs at." -- +============+==================+==========================+================ Ian, barely speaking even for himself | "Riding a Harley Hog with Uma / iyoung@alpha.wright.edu | Thurman: That's heaven" ........../ "the guy who tries to be funny, but | -K. D. Lang- / From spbcajk@ucl.ac.uk Wed Aug 24 03:00:49 EDT 1994 Article: 1016 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!pipex!ibmpcug!miclon!uknet!bcc.ac.uk!link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk!spbcajk From: spbcajk@ucl.ac.uk (Mr Andrew John Kale) Subject: Re: Group for old computers Message-ID: <1994Aug22.124247.33439@ucl.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 12:42:47 GMT References: <11AUG199408483833@almach.caltech.edu> <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se> <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu> <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> <7hDKkGakfSRE069yn@iol.ie> <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> Organization: University College London Lines: 22 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:72988 comp.sys.dec:22121 vmsnet.pdp-11:1508 alt.sys.pdp8:1016 jleslie@dmccorp.com (Jerry Leslie) writes: >And why the rumor that the name "Windows-NT" was a justification for the >acronym "WNT", which is "VMS" transposed up by one letter ? This was done >for the computer in the the movie "2001, a Space Odessy", HAL, which >is "IBM" transposed down by one letter. In his defence, it must be noted that Arthur C. Clarke has always denied all knowledge of this at the time; he puts it down to serendipity. Wouldn't you - after all, particularly in this day and age, who wants to admit that they're one step behind Big Blue? Cheers /================\ \======\ /====/ # # # # /========\ /===========\ # # # @@ # # === # /==\ / # # @@ # # # # # # == / # @@ # # # # # \=========/ \========/ \===/ \===/ spbcajk@ucl.ac.uk From mol@trurl.df.lth.se Wed Aug 24 03:01:20 EDT 1994 Article: 1017 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sunic!news.lth.se!mol From: mol@trurl.df.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp11,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec Subject: Welcome to alt.sys.pdp10 Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 22 Aug 1994 17:21:43 GMT Organization: yacc - the Computer Society at Lund University and Lund Institute of Technology Lines: 24 Message-ID: <33amr7$itr@nic.lth.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: trurl.df.lth.se Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.sys.pdp8:1017 alt.folklore.computers:73015 comp.sys.dec:22133 Welcome to the new newsgroup alt.sys.pdp10! This is a newgroup for the discussion of DEC's PDP-10 and DEC-20 computers and clones by other manufacturers, their hardware and architecture, their software and operating systems, and emulators running on other machines. Also it's a place for telling your "war stories" involving these machines, anecdotes about the '10-based hacker culture (including the ITS community); a place for old hackers to reminisce about the old days, and for younger hackers to learn about these legendary things. And, finally, it's a place for the priests of the 36-bit creed to combat the modern heresy that a machine must have a word length that's a multiple of 8 :-). P.S. If your site isn't receiving alt.sys.pdp10 within a week or so, talk to your news admin. If he/she hasn't received any newgroup message, please contact me. Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se) / yacc computer club, Lund, Sweden Work: Innovativ Vision AB, Linkoping (magnus.olsson@ivab.se) Old adresses (may still work): magnus@thep.lu.se, thepmo@selund.bitnet PGP key available via finger (to df.lth.se) or on request. From MLEWIS@P06.dasd.honeywell.com Wed Aug 24 03:01:35 EDT 1994 Article: 1018 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!src.honeywell.com!the-star.honeywell.com!cs0.dasd.honeywell.com!P06.dasd.honeywell.com!MLEWIS From: MLEWIS@P06.dasd.honeywell.com Subject: PDP-8 emulator Message-ID: Keywords: PDP-8 emulator Lines: 7 Sender: news@cs0.dasd.honeywell.com Organization: Honeywell, INC. DASD Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 19:37:22 GMT I'm looking for a good freeware/shareware/commercial PDP-8 emulator. It would be great if it runs on a PC, but I do have access to other types of machines. Michael Lewis + mlewis@p06.dasd.honeywell.com + Be afraid... Sr. Programmer + + Honeywell DAS + mlewis@abq-ros.com + Be VERY afraid... ABQ, NM + + From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Wed Aug 24 03:02:12 EDT 1994 Article: 1019 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP-8 emulator Date: 22 Aug 1994 21:53:07 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <33b6o3$qu3@nexus.uiowa.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu From article , by MLEWIS@P06.dasd.honeywell.com: > I'm looking for a good freeware/shareware/commercial PDP-8 emulator. What peripherals do you want emulated? How fancy a front panel do you want (will a textual approximation do, or do you want blinking lights). If you want blinking lights emulated on an X-terminal from a UNIX environment, and if full support for TTY (on your console terminal window) and high speed paper tape reader/punch (on disk files) will satisfy you, I have what you want. Reports are that it runs well under Linux on an IBM PC, even, as long as you have X. My emulator also supports RX01 diskettes (as apecial format disk files), but that's not fully debugged. I'll E-mail it on demand. There are some good emulators written for the IBM PC also, Bill Haygood has a nice one, with good support for more devices, I believe, but as I understand it, the graphics aren't so flashy. Anyway, the faq has pointers to various stuff on FTP archives you might want to look at. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From root@bass.cse.bris.ac.uk Wed Aug 24 03:02:25 EDT 1994 Article: 1020 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bsmail!uns.bris.ac.uk!root From: root@bass.cse.bris.ac.uk (Super-User) Subject: Re: Group for old computers In-Reply-To: spbcajk@ucl.ac.uk's message of Mon, 22 Aug 1994 12:42:47 GMT Message-ID: Sender: usenet@info.bris.ac.uk (Usenet news owner) Nntp-Posting-Host: bass.cse.bris.ac.uk Organization: Computing Service, University of Bristol, GB. References: <11AUG199408483833@almach.caltech.edu> <32f64v$kds@nic.lth.se> <13AUG199410052681@almach.caltech.edu> <32q7m9$612@nic.lth.se> <7hDKkGakfSRE069yn@iol.ie> <32vavj$n12@uuneo.neosoft.com> <1994Aug22.124247.33439@ucl.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 12:05:34 GMT Lines: 13 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:73120 comp.sys.dec:22159 vmsnet.pdp-11:1518 alt.sys.pdp8:1020 In article <1994Aug22.124247.33439@ucl.ac.uk> spbcajk@ucl.ac.uk (Mr Andrew John Kale) writes: In his defence, it must be noted that Arthur C. Clarke has always denied all knowledge of this at the time; he puts it down to serendipity. ----------- That's presumably why he lives in Sri Lanka -- a ready-made excuse. -- Kit Powell c.j.powell@bristol.ac.uk +44 117 9287864 (fax +44 117 9291576) Computing Service, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UD, GB From werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com Wed Aug 24 03:06:23 EDT 1994 Article: 1021 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!news.duke.edu!alingo.zk3.dec.com!werme From: werme@alingo.zk3.dec.com (Eric Werme) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.society.folklore Subject: Re: DEC roots of PIP, DDT, etc. (& early OS/8) Followup-To: comp.society.folklore Date: 23 Aug 1994 15:21:03 -0400 Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 72 Sender: jfurr@acpub.duke.edu Approved: jfurr@acpub.duke.edu Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: bio2.acpub.duke.edu Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.computers:73163 alt.sys.pdp8:1021 comp.society.folklore:321 Hear are two replies I received from people much closer to those early roots than I. ------------------------------------------------------------ From: "John Green" You don't have to appeal to CJL. ========== I believe (CJL - help!) that the PDP-8 folks writing OS/8 (TS/8?) picked up the names and general command syntax from their PDP-10 exposure. Many of those people moved to RT-11 and copied all of that. A DDT for the -11 came from CMU in the mid 1970s, but I'm not sure if that ever became a distributed piece of code either through DEC or DECUS. ========== What do you mean PDP-8 folks writing OS/8? It was a one man project conceived and implemented by my roommate Richard F Lary. He called it the First Upward Compatible Keyboard Monitor (FUCK Monitor). There was an intention, perhaps only humorous, to write a PDP-15 Second Upward Compatible Keyboard Monitor (SUCK Monitor). He took the idea to his boss on Wednesday. His boss said to start work on it as a background project and keep his regular work on schedule. If he ever got within 6 months of finishing they would assign a tech writer to it and consider releasing it. Richie took that as a challenge and demoed the system to his boss the following Monday. It was complete enough to load a primitive PIP off DEC Tape which would give a prompt and copy files. Of course it took another year of work before Programming System/8 (PS/8) was released. At Eli Glaser's (a Long Island NY salesman) suggestion the system was renamed OS/8 as Eli said he could sell more machines with an Operating System than he could with a Programming System. The intention of the project was to be able to have an ASR-33 in an empty room and give a user a Turing Test to see if he could determine whether it was connected to PS/8 or TOPS-10. [werme nitpick: I'm not certain about 1971, but I know in 1969 (see below) "TOPS-10" wasn't shipping. Ihe OS was called merely the "PDP-10 Monitor".] Regards, John C ------------------------------------------------------------ From: lary@ssag.cxo.dec.D5NET.dec.com (A cowflop in the cybernetic meadow) John's information is fairly accurate, a coupla nits: - I wrote the first draft of the FUCK Monitor, which became the BLEEP Monitor, which was released as PS/8 (Programming System/8, my term, because I didn't think any system which didn't enable interrupts should be called an OS), which became OS/8 during the Nixon Wage/Price Freeze in 1971 (because, um, if we called it PS/8 Release 2 we couldn't charge a higher price for it). I didn't write the released product alone, however, I had help from a guy named Ed Friedman and another guy named Paul . - Digital had a program development system for the PDP-8 at the time (1969) but it was bad, bad, bad. We acquired the rights to a system named CPS (Cooley Programming System, developed at Cooley Lab at the University of Michigan) in exchange for some hardware and I was given the job of productizing it. CPS was miles better than what we had, but it had LOTS of internal restrictions and its user interface was alien (modeled on TSS/360, which is what they had at Michigan) so I decided to scrap it instead. My manager, Chuck Conley, covered me by telling the rest of the company that we were just making some small changes to CPS to make it more compatible. - Actually, there wasn't a DDT on the PDP-8 for a long time; we couldn't afford the room for the symbol table. We used ODT, Octal Debugging Technique, with similiar syntax to DDT but no symbols. No big deal when a large program (like our Fortran compiler) was less than 10KB... Richie From svm@kozmix.xs4all.nl Wed Aug 24 03:07:27 EDT 1994 Article: 1022 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!sun4nl!hacktic!kozmix.xs4all.nl!svm From: svm@kozmix.xs4all.nl (Sander van Malssen) Subject: Re: PDP-8 emulator Reply-To: svm@kozmix.xs4all.nl Organization: Kozmic Egg Productions, Gouda, Netherlands Message-ID: References: <33b6o3$qu3@nexus.uiowa.edu> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 21:46:27 +0200 (MET DST) Lines: 20 jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: > There are some good emulators written for the IBM PC also, > Bill Haygood has a nice one, with good > support for more devices, I believe, but as I understand it, the > graphics aren't so flashy. Anyway, the faq has pointers to various > stuff on FTP archives you might want to look at. Haygood's emulator has the added advantage that it comes with a disk pack image full of goodies. If someone wants to build it on a UN*X box, mail me for an improved version of the screen handling code. (BTW, the /pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/emulators/new dir on sunsite.unc.edu is a later version of .../emulators/haygood, so don't bother downloading both dirs.) Cheers, Sander -- Sander van Malssen svm@kozmix.xs4all.nl From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Wed Aug 24 03:07:55 EDT 1994 Article: 1023 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: PDP-8 systems available! Date: 23 Aug 1994 21:21:54 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <33dp9i$58h@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Chuck Taylor of Antioch College in Ohio says that he has a pair of PDP-8/E systems to dispose of. One is a lab8/e system (green paint job on the front panel), the other is a PDP-8/e. He listed the following options as being present on both machines (his list wasn't complete): M8350 KA8E External positive I/O bus interface M884 KG8E Parity Generator Detector for DP8E M8655 KL8JA Terminal Control (UART based substitute for M8650) M848 KP8E Power fail and auto-restart He also says there is a paper tape reader/punch and 25 or more rolls of psper tape, plus many "flip'n'file" plastic paper-tape holders. The system was supposed to be functional when he got it, but it hasn't been tested recently. This is an excellent chance for folks in the east-central states to get their hands on a machine. If you want to arrange to pick up one of these machines, please reply directly to Chuck Taylor, not to me. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From grg@boombox.micro.umn.edu Wed Aug 24 17:27:03 EDT 1994 Article: 1024 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!news From: "George Gonzalez" Subject: Re: PDP-8 emulator Message-ID: <52571.grg@boombox.micro.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_17a4 Sender: news@news.cis.umn.edu (Usenet News Administration) Nntp-Posting-Host: x130-199.open.umn.edu X-Popmail-Charset: English Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 15:56:39 GMT Lines: 17 On Tue, 23 Aug 1994 21:46:27 +0200 (MET DST, Sander van Malssen wrote: >jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes: >> There are some good emulators written for the IBM PC also, >> Bill Haygood has a nice one, with good >> support for more devices, I believe, but as I understand it, the >> graphics aren't so flashy. Anyway, the faq has pointers to various >> stuff on FTP archives you might want to look at. > Has anyone gotten Haygood's emulator to compile and run under MSDOS? It seems to use some large arrays that make Borland C choke. Plus there are a few typos in the CRT library that don't compile at all. Respond by e-mail, please. From smj@sdf.lonestar.org Sat Aug 27 03:50:43 EDT 1994 Article: 1025 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!convex!egsner!sdf!smj From: smj@sdf.lonestar.org (Stephen M. Jones) Subject: decmateIII forsale Message-ID: Organization: sdf.lonestar.org - dallas, tx.. 1 + 214.248.9811 Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 15:01:34 GMT Lines: 8 hello. I am selling a working decmate three (includes monitor and keyboard of course) I have some software from CL ftp site to include with it as well (os/278, gte .. et cetera) Please make an offer. -- stephen m. jones ... smj@sdf.macross.org From Tonyquin@sixpints.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 04:11:36 EDT 1994 Article: 1026 of alt.sys.pdp8 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 From: tonyquin@sixpints.demon.co.uk (Tony Quinn) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!MathWorks.Com!udel!news.sprintlink.net!demon!sixpints.demon.co.uk!tonyquin Subject: Re: PDP-8 emulator Distribution: world References: <52571.grg@boombox.micro.umn.edu> Organization: Total lack of..... Reply-To: Tonyquin@sixpints.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.21) Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 09:30:33 +0000 Message-ID: <778066233snz@sixpints.demon.co.uk> Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk In article <52571.grg@boombox.micro.umn.edu> grg@boombox.micro.umn.edu writes: > >Has anyone gotten Haygood's emulator to compile and run under MSDOS? >It seems to use some large arrays that make Borland C choke. >Plus there are a few typos in the CRT library that don't compile at all. > >Respond by e-mail, please. I seem to be having the same trouble, typos I can cope with, the large arrays Mr Borland's finest can't!!! -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Quinn ----- The Voice of Insanity replies to tonyquin@sixpints.demon.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Tue Aug 30 04:12:16 EDT 1994 Article: 1027 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP-8 emulator Date: 28 Aug 1994 16:44:15 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <33qesv$ejo@nexus.uiowa.edu> References: <778066233snz@sixpints.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu >>Has anyone gotten Haygood's emulator to compile and run under MSDOS? >>It seems to use some large arrays that make Borland C choke. >>Plus there are a few typos in the CRT library that don't compile at all. Well, try mine then, in the non-X-windows version. It has no big arrays, but it has one module, ttyaccess.c that will need rewriting to run under MSDOS (my version is for UNIX). All ttyaccess does is take over the keyboard for single character at a time polled use. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu From lhauser@rs6a.wln.com Tue Aug 30 04:13:20 EDT 1994 Article: 1028 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!rs6a.wln.com!rs6a.wln.com!lhauser From: lhauser@rs6a.wln.com (Williams Kastner Gibbs) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP-8 emulator Date: 29 Aug 1994 15:26:03 GMT Organization: WLN Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <33sumb$14lq@rs6a.wln.com> References: <33qesv$ejo@nexus.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rs6a.wln.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8] Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 (jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu) wrote: : >>Has anyone gotten Haygood's emulator to compile and run under MSDOS? : >>It seems to use some large arrays that make Borland C choke. : >>Plus there are a few typos in the CRT library that don't compile at all. : Well, try mine then, in the non-X-windows version. It has no big arrays, : but it has one module, ttyaccess.c that will need rewriting to run under : MSDOS (my version is for UNIX). All ttyaccess does is take over the : keyboard for single character at a time polled use. : Doug Jones : jones@cs.uiowa.edu Doug... how do we get it? I'd like to try it. Lee From jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu Tue Aug 30 04:13:57 EDT 1994 Article: 1029 of alt.sys.pdp8 Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!koriel!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: Re: PDP-8 emulator Date: 29 Aug 1994 16:40:49 GMT Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA Lines: 10 Distribution: world Message-ID: <33t32h$m4b@nexus.uiowa.edu> References: <33sumb$14lq@rs6a.wln.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu From article <33sumb$14lq@rs6a.wln.com>, by lhauser@rs6a.wln.com (Williams Kastner Gibbs): > > Doug... how do we get it? I'd like to try it. For now, I'm distributing a uuencoded compressed UNIX-style shell archive by E-mail. You asked for it, so I already E-mailed it your way. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu